Hoe for a win

[Laceups]

It’s fucking sickening how well we’ve played for 40 mins and then stupid defensive errors totally punished.

[mkowl]

1 minute ago, Mark said:

It's plain 2 see we are so much better than before. But if you haven't got the tools...

It's better organised shite that's for sure, but its nail on head in that our players are just lacking quality 

[Hirstys 12th Pint]

That 2nd goal is kids football stuff.  These are paid thousands a week.

 

[mkowl]

1 minute ago, Hirstys 12th Pint said:

That 2nd goal is kids football stuff.  These are paid thousands a week.

 

I mean what chance do we have when players are lacking basic qualities required in the Championship

[Canterburyowl]

Knowing our luck Rohl will probably walk before Xmas

[KrolMong]

No amount of coaching is going to make a squad full of league one players good enough for the Championship. We missed a hatful of chances because we don’t have even an average Championship quality striker, and our right back has knocked a 5 yard pass that we’d all make 8 yards away from its target and got a direct assist for the second.

Its all about levels and our squad isn’t up to it.

What we need to happen is that we just have a monster clear out in Jan, and bring in people who can consistently compete and play at this level.

[Beaconowl]

I know there is more to life than football. But this fucking game really gets you down sometimes. I just didnt see that half coming to an end like that. The trouble is, you just know there is no way back now, not with our present strike force.

Depressing 😢

[Andyben]

We're basically Jossys Giants.

[Laceups]

What is this new tactic where Dawson puts his defender under pressure with a short pass and immediately waves his arms for said under pressure defender to get rid? Bizarre.

[Hirstys 12th Pint]

18 minutes ago, Neville Facking Bartos said:

Guess what? It happens to players paid much much more than ours too

Not as fooking often.  You cannot defend that in any way, shape or form.  

[Hirstys 12th Pint]

3 minutes ago, Hirstys 12th Pint said:

Not as fooking often.  You cannot defend that in any way, shape or form.  

By virtue of saying players with higher wages are as shambolic as as 6th division under 14s team.

[Kiwi Owl]

So so easy that was

[mkowl]

Another very basic mistake in midfield 

[Laceups]

So so basic.

[Winco]

Still think we will get it together, not this game obviously but the signs are there that there is actually a game plan.

 

[mkowl]

Just now, Winco said:

Still think we will get it together, not this game obviously but the signs are there that there is actually a game plan.

 

Not a chance - don't get me wrong there is a game plan but frankly the players are not good enough at the basics to execute it 

[Mark]

Just now, mkowl said:

Not a chance - don't get me wrong there is a game plan but frankly the players are not good enough at the basics to execute it 

The players clearly are not good enough.  But I've see enough already that we need to keep faith with the manager if (when) we go down

.

[Andyben]

Is Ihekiwe fit?

[Laceups]

We’re a league 1 outfit. Hopefully the new set up get the time to get rid of a lot of the shite and build their own squad.

[Bellsview]

2 minutes ago, mkowl said:

Not a chance - don't get me wrong there is a game plan but frankly the players are not good enough at the basics to execute it 

Just have to hope for some decent January signings now (and to offload one or two at the same time) and that we aren’t cut too far adrift to be able to pull whatever deficit we have back. 

Seen a lot of positives tonight so I’m not for throwing the towel in just yet!

[Laceups]

As an aside this lass doing commentary is fucking atrocious too.

[Canterburyowl]

1 minute ago, Laceups said:

As an aside this lass doing commentary is fucking atrocious too.

Isn't she just! The drizzling shits just like this result

[Chelters]

I’ve seen enough struggling teams to know that a lack of confidence can exaggerate a lot of problems and make it look like the players aren’t trying.

Understandably we are very fragile and if we concede the first goal the cracks suddenly open up again.

The game before the first goal went in was one thing, after it was another.

 

[Boracic Lint]

Just now, Chelters said:

I’ve seen enough struggling teams to know that a lack of confidence can exaggerate a lot of problems and make it look like the players aren’t trying.

Understandably we are very fragile and if we concede the first goal the cracks suddenly open up again.

The game before the first goal went in was one thing, after it was another.

 

Been that way for most of this season though.

Doing alright, concede a (usually set piece) goal, collapse.

[mkowl]

11 minutes ago, Bellsview said:

Just have to hope for some decent January signings now (and to offload one or two at the same time) and that we aren’t cut too far adrift to be able to pull whatever deficit we have back. 

Seen a lot of positives tonight so I’m not for throwing the towel in just yet!

Seriously there will be zero point - we will be at match game 27 already when the window opens. Ok mathematically it's not over but I can see us not being in double figures points wise and cut adrift by 20 plus points 

Who would want to join us for starters.

There is a comment above about having a mass clear out in January, you simply cannot do that with players under contract.

This is going to be a long grim season and our attention and resources are better directed to re-build in League 1 not wasting funds trying to retrieve this 

[mkowl]

12 minutes ago, Chelters said:

I’ve seen enough struggling teams to know that a lack of confidence can exaggerate a lot of problems and make it look like the players aren’t trying.

Understandably we are very fragile and if we concede the first goal the cracks suddenly open up again.

The game before the first goal went in was one thing, after it was another.

 

The one thing you cannot accuse this lot of is lack of effort. Confidence drains quickly for sure. Maybe just maybe if we score first it could be different.

But frankly their technical abilities and physical conditioning are below the level required. Plymouth have won at a canter in the end, without being brilliant, they were simply clinical at one end and did not really get troubled by our attackers at the other. 

 

[KrolMong]

First half, played well, and the better side but got done by a free kick and some embarrassing play from Pol. Didn’t take our chances and got punished.

Second half, I thought we were really poor and lucky to not concede more than just one. Again, legs had gone after 60 minutes, and our subs made us worse, whilst there’s had a positive impact.

We are definitely playing to a certain pattern and getting success doing so, the players are also taking more risks which is creating problems. But… none of this squad is good enough for this level, we are desperately short of even lower end championship quality attackers, and this is easily the most unfit Wednesday side I have ever seen. There’s one or two in there that I actually wouldn’t have them anywhere the squad until they can prove they have the legs to even 75 minutes at high tempo. That for me is unprofessional and unacceptable and those players should not be involved.

[Kiwi Owl]

Well that second half was just rubbish. 2-0 down and I reckon the player who had the most touches that 2nd half was Dawson. 

Xisco has completely destroyed this team. I feel for Rohl and Powell as the rebuilding job they have is arguably the biggest rebuilding job this club has had. So many players have had football trained out of them by Xisco and his staff. Byers as an example was useless tonight and there's no way he's a bad player. The training, the tactics, the style of play, everything that was coached in the first few months of this season and pre-season has made this side a team that would struggle in league two. Fitness levels are dreadful for this division

The new signings as well, I cannot believe they have improved the team at all, they've made the team worse. Diaby is an accident waiting to happen, Valentin is pretty poor and the two wingers are very raw. Hendrick and Buckley were panic loans.

I'm unsure if he'll have the time to do it, especially if Mr Chairman still thinks we should get promoted. This side has more chance of getting promoted as I do of beating Scottie Scheffler at matchplay. There's also the patience of the fans given if the side isn't playing gung ho attacking football, there'd be fans demanding him to be sacked.

What a mess, throw the towel in. No way is this team recovering from the damage that has been done

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Kiwi Owl

[mkowl]

Fair points KM

Do you think this is simply age meaning the fitness levels are naturally on the decline.

Did the shorter pre season but clearly disturbed with Moore's departure and the delay in Xisco being appointed meaning the usual fitness work was compromised

Was it deliberate policy - some managers want to avoid later season fatigue 

 

[HoylandOwl]

1 hour ago, mkowl said:

Tbh Tee it is better, but we have zero quality in the forward areas. At the same time there is a mistake always waiting in that defence and a quick move bypasses our midfield 

I mean we are competitive but the inherent weakness in those key areas makes this task virtually impossible to retrieve.

And the psychological impact of constant losses can not be underestimated

Musaba is the only one really who's shown anything like. But he's so much like JJ, in the respect of his final ball is a touch too many. Our strikers aren't good enough, it's something WE knew. BUT, the management/owner in the summer didn't think so. And my god is it obvious now. 

Whittaker today, was a country mile above our forwards. And he cost what? £1m?

Even much better than Windass. Josh is a good player, he's very busy, but he's nowhere near prolific enough. I counted I think three smashed over the top tonight. One of them was IMO guilt edged for someone with his ability. 

We need to score the first goal on Sunday. We almost have to. 

[Bellsview]

10 minutes ago, mkowl said:

Seriously there will be zero point - we will be at match game 27 already when the window opens. Ok mathematically it's not over but I can see us not being in double figures points wise and cut adrift by 20 plus points 

Who would want to join us for starters.

There is a comment above about having a mass clear out in January, you simply cannot do that with players under contract.

This is going to be a long grim season and our attention and resources are better directed to re-build in League 1 not wasting funds trying to retrieve this 

Just seen the league table and we are now 11 points adrift of safety, that’s a massive mountain to climb even at this stage of the season. 

I suspect you’re right with what you are saying, but then who gave us a chance after Peterborough away in the playoffs last season?

I just can’t throw the towel in when we’re not even out of October though, no matter how gloomy things are.

[KrolMong]

I’ll tell you what is next, the owner has been hammered by the fans, the previous manager has been hammered by the fans. The people who generally have got away with this are the players.

There’s no-one left to hound but them, there’s too many rudimentary mistakes by players, that you don’t expect to see at a professional level.

The new coach will rightly get supported, and the owner has been praised for taking a new approach to the coaching side of the club. The one constant failure has been the squad. If they lose on Sunday, the crowd will go after them, and rightly so. The lack of fitness and the basic errors are not acceptable.

[Tank_Owl2,0]

Didnt watch it. I had a horrible feeling that might happen with the midfield and full backs he'd picked. Its very rare we get much at Plymouth and tonight was no exception. By the sounds of it there was some promise from what I have read on here but ultimately zero points.

Saturday is absolutely huge if we are going to have any chance of staying up this season, which is looking rapidly unlikely.

Go a goal in front and maybe just maybe with a good positive crowd behind them a win can follow, but with Roveram winning they will have a bit of a spring in their step.

Safe trip to anyone making the trip back.

[KrolMong]

5 minutes ago, mkowl said:

Fair points KM

Do you think this is simply age meaning the fitness levels are naturally on the decline.

Did the shorter pre season but clearly disturbed with Moore's departure and the delay in Xisco being appointed meaning the usual fitness work was compromised

Was it deliberate policy - some managers want to avoid later season fatigue 

 

I do think that one or two of the older players legs have gone - but that for me is down to what fitness work was or was not done in the summer or during the season under Xisco. But what has surprised me is the drop in levels in some of the younger players. George Byers and John Buckley, as an example, are blowing after 30 minutes. Even players who have high levels of fitness like Paterson and Gregory nowhere near as sharp and energetic as we have seen previously. It genuinely looks like no fitness work was done by Xisco and his staff, and the issue is that you are now having to manage fitness levels through games, so if the base is lower, then unless you pull people out of squads for a month, they won’t improve.

[mkowl]

2 minutes ago, KrolMong said:

I’ll tell you what is next, the owner has been hammered by the fans, the previous manager has been hammered by the fans. The people who generally have got away with this are the players.

There’s no-one left to hound but them, there’s too many rudimentary mistakes by players, that you don’t expect to see at a professional level.

The new coach will rightly get supported, and the owner has been praised for taking a new approach to the coaching side of the club. The one constant failure has been the squad. If they lose on Sunday, the crowd will go after them, and rightly so. The lack of fitness and the basic errors are not acceptable.

In part there is a degree of loyalty to the squad that got you promoted and provided 2 years of winning, if not particular an exciting brand of football.  

The misnomer was that this was a "Championship squad". It wasn't it was just way better than the average League 1 squad.

The errors did not get punished, the piss poor crosses, shots miles wide, the one on ones flunked get forgotten because the sheer volume of chances created and goals scored.

The difference in this league is plain to see. I get the players are escaping criticism, but frankly in reality they are playing to their capabilities. 

[mkowl]

4 minutes ago, KrolMong said:

I do think that one or two of the older players legs have gone - but that for me is down to what fitness work was or was not done in the summer or during the season under Xisco. But what has surprised me is the drop in levels in some of the younger players. George Byers and John Buckley, as an example, are blowing after 30 minutes. Even players who have high levels of fitness like Paterson and Gregory nowhere near as sharp and energetic as we have seen previously. It genuinely looks like no fitness work was done by Xisco and his staff, and the issue is that you are now having to manage fitness levels through games, so if the base is lower, then unless you pull people out of squads for a month, they won’t improve.

What would be the rationale. The expectation that players are professional and will look after this themselves ?Clearly there is an obligation but if you are not being assessed, monitored etc how do you know. 

Is their base level below other Championship teams. Is it part of the review undertaken as to the quantum of injuries we have had and long lasting ones at that to under prepare.

 

[Lee]

How did Gassama look when came on for last 25, any positives? 

[mkowl]

1 minute ago, Lee said:

How did Gassama look when came on for last 25, any positives? 

Shite, next question 

[KrolMong]

3 minutes ago, mkowl said:

What would be the rationale. The expectation that players are professional and will look after this themselves ?Clearly there is an obligation but if you are not being assessed, monitored etc how do you know. 

Is their base level below other Championship teams. Is it part of the review undertaken as to the quantum of injuries we have had and long lasting ones at that to under prepare.

 

I know that under Carlos, the fitness work that was done was very low level, but that was largely hidden because the players were very good at keeping the ball. That came back to haunt us when the players picked up a multitude of injury problems.

I genuinely don’t think that core fitness was a priority for Xisco, that’s why every single team we play against out runs us. That in itself is a catastrophic error by Xisco in his judgement of the squad and the division. If your players lack quality, you make them running machines. That way then, the only way you get beaten is because of a lack of quality. We are getting comprehensively outworked, out ran and out sprinted by every team we play. So not only do we pay for a lack of quality, but we pay for a lack of fitness.

I think back to Wednesday under Sturrock, that squad wasn’t great, but we very rarely got outworked in the Championship. Even Stuart Gray when he took over, we didn’t have a great squad, but we were fit and hard working.

Rohl is trying to get us to work hard, which is the right approach, but the players don’t have it in them to do high tempo for more than 55 minutes, and when the levels drop, the opposition dominates.

[Lee]

Next question for MK, where would this squad finish in current league 1

[HappyOwl]

Fuckin shit 😡😡

[Lee]

1 minute ago, HappyOwl said:

Fuckin shit 😡😡

You a bit grumpy happy??

[LiamOwl]

My first thought on the fitness issue is always that the players are professionals and as such are responsible for maintaining their level of fitness, regardless of what training is being provided by the club. 

But is that actually fair? Or is it likely that club micromanage their fitness/running/gym work etc so they can’t just go off and do what they want away from the club?

[HoylandOwl]

 

[HappyOwl]

41 minutes ago, Lee said:

You a bit grumpy happy??

Yep from what i have witnessed tonight we are down we will not stay up so better accept it 

[Bellsview]

54 minutes ago, HoylandOwl said:

 

I have faith in the gaffer and he’s right in what he says.

We created chances. It’s not his fault players like Gregory and Windass thought they were kicking rugby conversions tonight instead of kicking the ball under the crossbar.

We were all happy with the first 25-35 minutes of play tonight - massive improvements on what we’d seen prior to today. We still have big problems in terms of finishing and fitness, but we already look so much better than we did under Munoz.

We can see the organisation and setup is better, players are looking more comfortable on the ball and we do seem to have worked on a system and pattern of play, but Rohl and his team can’t work miracles in terms of fitness, pace and finishing (and it’s still early days in terms of instilling self-belief and confidence in the players as well) - but if we can make improvements at the pace we have done since Rohl took over then things will get better.

It’s still October lads - and as far as my memory serves me no team was ever relegated this early in the season! I have confidence in this manager and his back room staff. 

The season ain’t over yet! 

[HoylandOwl]

7 hours ago, Bellsview said:

I have faith in the gaffer and he’s right in what he says.

We created chances. It’s not his fault players like Gregory and Windass thought they were kicking rugby conversions tonight instead of kicking the ball under the crossbar.

We were all happy with the first 25-35 minutes of play tonight - massive improvements on what we’d seen prior to today. We still have big problems in terms of finishing and fitness, but we already look so much better than we did under Munoz.

We can see the organisation and setup is better, players are looking more comfortable on the ball and we do seem to have worked on a system and pattern of play, but Rohl and his team can’t work miracles in terms of fitness, pace and finishing (and it’s still early days in terms of instilling self-belief and confidence in the players as well) - but if we can make improvements at the pace we have done since Rohl took over then things will get better.

It’s still October lads - and as far as my memory serves me no team was ever relegated this early in the season! I have confidence in this manager and his back room staff. 

The season ain’t over yet! 

You’re right. The first 1/3 of the game was good.

Im resigned to likely relegation, and it feels weird so early; anything else now is a bonus. A huge one! But we keep our management team no matter what. THAT is the only way forward longer term IMO

[mkowl]

8 hours ago, Lee said:

Next question for MK, where would this squad finish in current league 1

Good question, but I suspect in the play off places. I have watched very little League 1 stuff this year, might as well have a year off. 

In the Championship we are 5 - 10% below the required standard. We would still have 5 - 10% greater standard than the rest. I am judging on a clean slate not current form per se

[mkowl]

3 minutes ago, HoylandOwl said:

You’re right. The first 1/3 of the game was good.

Im resigned to likely relegation, and it feels weird so early; anything else now is a bonus. A huge one! But we keep our management team no matter what. THAT is the only way forward longer term IMO

I admire people's optimism, I even get dismayed at my own pessimism at times. 

Yes it was better organised, we did create chances that better strikers could have taken. But as I said to my lad, even if we had scored first, then when the opposition eventually came at us this lot would have capitulated. Particularly as KM notes that our fitness levels across the team are not adequate.

You never say never but we are already at the stage we have to win 16 out off 33 games to survive. Even what I call mid table form W D L combo every 3 games averaging out at 1.33 per game would not be enough to hit 50 points.

All I am seeing is a squad that, if firing, could hit 20th position over a season at best. 

I will be genuinely amazed if we hit 25 points 

[mkowl]

8 hours ago, LiamOwl said:

My first thought on the fitness issue is always that the players are professionals and as such are responsible for maintaining their level of fitness, regardless of what training is being provided by the club. 

But is that actually fair? Or is it likely that club micromanage their fitness/running/gym work etc so they can’t just go off and do what they want away from the club?

I guess there is general fitness which is the players obligation to achieve, thereafter it is the philosophy instilled by the coaching staff to suit the game plan.

The late finish to the previous season and the madness of the summer clearly did not help the players at all.

But equally they are getting older, some have come back from injuries or carrying them. And the Championship is a higher level, that many of these failed with us not so long ago.

What ever the cause this lack of fitness is a pivotal factor in our 90 minute performance levels. So being positive about a decent opening 30 minutes is false hope because of this linitation