You gotta Röhl with it - Watford match thread.

[owl71]

Goals is the problem.  We need to find a few from somewhere or we’ll be dead and buried by the time the January transfer window opens.  

[Teddy Nickelarse]

11 minutes ago, Neville Facking Bartos said:

This is where the coaching comes in, not to create a goal out of nothing as they’ll be few and far between irrespective of quality of player.

Where the goals will come from will be high press and forcing mistakes which can be capitalised on, we’ve also seen us commit more number in the box today, we’ll increase our goal tally just by doing that.

Scoring goals isn’t all about quality, granted it helps, but it’s about playing football in the right areas of the pitch, and more frequently. It’s about having that desire to get in to the right areas to pick things up and all of that can be done through coaching and man management.

 

Agreed. I don't  think our biggest problem this season has been the strikers. We've  not been creating enough and this is where we need to improve most. Very beginning of the new era and I expect to see the impact of the new coaches in due course.

[mkowl]

3 minutes ago, Neville Facking Bartos said:

This is where the coaching comes in, not to create a goal out of nothing as they’ll be few and far between irrespective of quality of player.

Where the goals will come from will be high press and forcing mistakes which can be capitalised on, we’ve also seen us commit more number in the box today, we’ll increase our goal tally just by doing that.

Scoring goals isn’t all about quality, granted it helps, but it’s about playing football in the right areas of the pitch, and more frequently. It’s about having that desire to get in to the right areas to pick things up and all of that can be done through coaching and man management.

 

The high press stutters to a halt because the midfielders and forwards are fit enough to last 60 minutes 

I just think people are building false hope when the reality is the base level is so poor 

[mkowl]

1 minute ago, Teddy Nickelarse said:

Agreed. I don't  think our biggest problem this season has been the strikers. We've  not been creating enough and this is where we need to improve most. Very beginning of the new era and I expect to see the impact of the new coaches in due course.

One goal in 7 games I would beg to differ 

[Gleadless Owl]

2 minutes ago, mkowl said:

One goal in 7 games I would beg to differ 

If our strikers had been missing chances every game I'd agree with you. They've been feeding off scraps under Xisco. Despite his age I still think Gregory is a good footballer and capable of 10-15 goals a season if he gets the service 

[Teddy Nickelarse]

39 minutes ago, mkowl said:

One goal in 7 games I would beg to differ 

Ok we'll  agree to differ. We can score by spreading the goals around but we have to start  creating. We were a shambles under Xisco but this is a new era and I expect the new broom to get us creating more.

[Teddy Nickelarse]

44 minutes ago, mkowl said:

The high press stutters to a halt because the midfielders and forwards are fit enough to last 60 minutes 

I just think people are building false hope when the reality is the base level is so poor 

You're  right about the fitness levels and I've  been banging this drum since early doors. I expect this to improve under the new regime and apparently the intensity of training has already increased.

[Chelters]

There’s only one player in the building who knows where the goal is this season. Time to give him a chance.

[mkowl]

9 hours ago, Teddy Nickelarse said:

Ok we'll  agree to differ. We can score by spreading the goals around but we have to start  creating. We were a shambles under Xisco but this is a new era and I expect the new broom to get us creating more.

I am not going to argue about Xisco.

And I am not being critical of Rohl, I am sure he will improve us and by definition we should get more goal scoring opportunities.

But frankly I think the players at his disposal will make this a difficult ask. I am setting my benchmark low accordingly. 

 

[mkowl]

9 hours ago, Chelters said:

There’s only one player in the building who knows where the goal is this season. Time to give him a chance.

I mean what is there to lose. None of Smith, Gregory, Patterson, Fletcher nor Wilks are going to be effective in the Championship.

I always recall at one of our many low ebbs Chris Brunt been given a chance. He hit a 70 yard cross field ball to the feet of our full back. It restored some faith. 

No one knows if Cadamatari could make a difference, but what are we saving him for. 

[Tylluan]

26 minutes ago, mkowl said:

No one knows if Cadamatari could make a difference, but what are we saving him for. 

I suppose this decision will be down to Lense more than anything. Bailey's confidence and instinct in front of goal has been based purely on age group football and his reputation now proceeds him to a certain extent when coming up against u21 defenders. 

We don't know what goes off in training but if his usual application isn't coming off against Iorfa, Diaby, Ihiekwe etc then there's no point throwing him in against Plymouth defence that shut West Brom out yesterday. And the same could be said for Gassama and why he's hardly figured this season. 

 

[mkowl]

3 minutes ago, Tylluan said:

I suppose this decision will be down to Lense more than anything. Bailey's confidence and instinct in front of goal has been based purely on age group football and his reputation now proceeds him to a certain extent when coming up against u21 defenders. 

We don't know what goes off in training but if his usual application isn't coming off against Iorfa, Diaby, Ihiekwe etc then there's no point throwing him in against Plymouth defence that shut West Brom out yesterday. And the same could be said for Gassama and why he's hardly figured this season. 

 

I am not expecting him to be the next coming. 

But when I see the same old options of Smith or Gregory. 

Patterson is a wholehearted player for sure, but really a striker at Championship level he ain't. 

My youngest is now at the age when he bemoans that Real Madrid start kids younger than him. If they are good enough they are old enough

[Teddy Nickelarse]

1 hour ago, mkowl said:

I am not going to argue about Xisco.

And I am not being critical of Rohl, I am sure he will improve us and by definition we should get more goal scoring opportunities.

But frankly I think the players at his disposal will make this a difficult ask. I am setting my benchmark low accordingly. 

 

I guess only time will tell. We agree that it will be difficult but I am slightly more optimistic. I do hope that we have the option to send the outfield loanees back in January and maybe move Johnson on to allow DR to bring in 4 players of his choosing. Vasquez is decent but the other loanees can be imoroved on IMO.

[mkowl]

1 minute ago, Teddy Nickelarse said:

I guess only time will tell. We agree that it will be difficult but I am slightly more optimistic. I do hope that we have the option to send the outfield loanees back in January and maybe move Johnson on to allow DR to bring in 4 players of his choosing. Vasquez is decent but the other loanees can be imoroved on IMO.

Rohl will be a good appointment, but we all know Wednesday fans. Expectations increase and then when he only achieves an average outcome he will be deemed to have failed.

The grim reality is we need to go backwards to go forwards. Of course it would be better if that was in the Championship. I just don't think it will be 

[mkowl]

And those pondering salvation in the January window, the game v Hull on 1st Jan is Matchday 26 

As invariably happens there would be another couple of games before the window closes.

The risk is we will be cut adrift from memory bliss to such an extent by that stage 

[TheExile]

12 hours ago, owl71 said:

Goals is the problem.  We need to find a few from somewhere or we’ll be dead and buried by the time the January transfer window opens.  

Feels like we already are tbh. Need 3 wins to even make ground and we can’t hit a barn door. The obvious gap all summer was who will come in win you a tight game and we never addressed it. 

[mkowl]

13 minutes ago, TheExile said:

Feels like we already are tbh. Need 3 wins to even make ground and we can’t hit a barn door. The obvious gap all summer was who will come in win you a tight game and we never addressed it. 

The other side of that equation is that we always seem liable to concede a goal. Tbf the lad yesterday took it well and by reversing into the near side, Dawson was unsighted a tad. 

And I suppose once we play sides nearer the top will the games in fact be tight 

 

[Teddy Nickelarse]

1 hour ago, mkowl said:

Rohl will be a good appointment, but we all know Wednesday fans. Expectations increase and then when he only achieves an average outcome he will be deemed to have failed.

The grim reality is we need to go backwards to go forwards. Of course it would be better if that was in the Championship. I just don't think it will be 

True but I've  not given up on survival this season personally. We need to scrap until Christmas and then see what January brings.

The new coaching team has surely been recruited as a long term project? Fan impatience  is a factor I agree but is often overstated by social media. The anti Chansiri vitriol on Stalk for exampke is not borne out at matches bar a few gobshites. I think that the majority will be patient if they see green shoots.

[Teddy Nickelarse]

It'll all come out in the wash anyway, as they say. I'm looking forward with tempered optimism. 

Let's see how things unfold. 

[Otto_Man]

37 minutes ago, TheExile said:

Feels like we already are tbh. Need 3 wins to even make ground and we can’t hit a barn door. The obvious gap all summer was who will come in win you a tight game and we never addressed it. 

Given only Ipswich out scored us at home last season, I wouldn't say it was an obvious gap. The lack of chances created is far more of a concern IMO 

[Teddy Nickelarse]

3 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

Given only Ipswich out scored us at home last season, I wouldn't say it was an obvious gap. The lack of chances created is far more of a concern IMO 

Yep 

[Bob Petrie]

15 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

Given only Ipswich out scored us at home last season, I wouldn't say it was an obvious gap. The lack of chances created is far more of a concern IMO 

That’s the difference between how chances are created at Championship level vs L1. There was a difference in our style of play last season vs Ipswich, and why they’ve adapted so much better - and ultimately scored more goals. 
My hope is that this can be coached and understood by the players, and it’s not just down to lack of ability. 

[TheExile]

40 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

Given only Ipswich out scored us at home last season, I wouldn't say it was an obvious gap. The lack of chances created is far more of a concern IMO 

At this level it’s a different story though and part of the problem is that our general approach of using lwb to deliver the majority of balls into the box made it worse.  We attacked well as a team last season and we were allowed to do so. At this level you need a bit more individual quality in addition to that

[TheExile]

1 hour ago, mkowl said:

The other side of that equation is that we always seem liable to concede a goal. Tbf the lad yesterday took it well and by reversing into the near side, Dawson was unsighted a tad. 

And I suppose once we play sides nearer the top will the games in fact be tight 

 

Yeah I think even the games at the bottom will be tight but as an example asprilla came on and just did a bit of individual quality to dig his team out. No one is doing that for us but in the past when poor at this level we have had players to do it and keep us up. Musaba appears to have been the hope there but he’s admitted himself he’s going to need time 

[HoylandOwl]

17 hours ago, Skamp said:

I know what you're saying but I'm fed up of clutching at straws. Hopefully the management can get something out of the players fairly sharpish before we start to really worry.

Mate, you're not wrong, I'm a little tired of just hoping the tide turns. But I genuinely think there was more to be optimistic about yesterday than we've seen all season to date. We had a structure, we defended 99% of the game what I'd say properly, no zonal rubbish, no wondering who's marking who. IT said a lot that they only had 1 shot on target. How many more times have we been able to say that this season? The home fans were booing their team's lack of chances and being forced to play sideways and backwards.

I'm not expecting miracles from Rohl and co, but it seems like there's more chance of this management team turning things around than the last lot already. IMO.

[TheExile]

I think we will do better and start to put a structure in place similar to what we had under gray, which was also short of goals. It’s the kind of thing that if we’d had rohl ten games ago then we’d be more in the mix it’s just whether we can realistically now out perform everyone above us consistently enough 

[Boracic Lint]

15 minutes ago, TheExile said:

I think we will do better and start to put a structure in place similar to what we had under gray, which was also short of goals. It’s the kind of thing that if we’d had rohl ten games ago then we’d be more in the mix it’s just whether we can realistically now out perform everyone above us consistently enough 

Role wouldn't have been allowed 10 games. He would have ended up the same as Xisco, probably worse having no previous as a manager.

He would have got the same 'we can only play one way' 'giz Darren back' '96 points' bollox that Xisco caved to and been sacked by now.

Only by having Xisco before him will he have the time to put anything in, as anything a new manager did would have been wrong, too many were invested in DM and the anti Chansiri stance to let a new manager grow.

[Teddy Nickelarse]

10 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

Role wouldn't have been allowed 10 games. He would have ended up the same as Xisco, probably worse having no previous as a manager.

He would have got the same 'we can only play one way' 'giz Darren back' '96 points' bollox that Xisco caved to and been sacked by now.

Only by having Xisco before him will he have the time to put anything in, as anything a new manager did would have been wrong, too many were invested in DM and the anti Chansiri stance to let a new manager grow.

I really think Röhl would have made a better fist of it than Xisco -  just my opinion though. Agree that the anti DC stuff would still have been prevalent on social media as well as radio and other media. On that note we have only seen minor outbursts from a few at games..... much to the chagrin of the Stalk disciples. The Xisco buffer is a bit of a double edged sword for Röhl- helped as you have suggested but also hindered by our points deficit. 

I didn't go yesterday but reports are that there was a definite improvement. I've  not written of this season personally but a long term plan is what we really need. 

[Winco]

I think we will go up.

[Teddy Nickelarse]

1 minute ago, Winco said:

I think we will go up.

..... eventually!

[Beaconowl]

4 minutes ago, Winco said:

I think we will go up.

Hopefully not Tits Up 🙄

[MAL]

On a more positive note...

 

I thought the fans were outstanding.

[Boracic Lint]

1 hour ago, Teddy Nickelarse said:

I really think Röhl would have made a better fist of it than Xisco -  just my opinion though. Agree that the anti DC stuff would still have been prevalent on social media as well as radio and other media. On that note we have only seen minor outbursts from a few at games..... much to the chagrin of the Stalk disciples. The Xisco buffer is a bit of a double edged sword for Röhl- helped as you have suggested but also hindered by our points deficit. 

I didn't go yesterday but reports are that there was a definite improvement. I've  not written of this season personally but a long term plan is what we really need. 

It looked a better performance, was it better than WBA, probably not. Was it better than Leeds? Nope.

It's pretty much a more PR friendly version of what Xisco attempted.

The last 2 games have been the easiest opposition far, and with a team that has actually played together more than a couple of times. 

Due to injuries and late start. Xisco never actually played his way with a full squad, so it was makeshift all the way. 

By the time he got everyone in, he had already given in to pressure and gone back to 3 at the back.

Swansea and Boro are the teams that are now reaping the rewards, by sticking with the manager, trusting the plan and now they're fine.

If we had stuck to the plan, stuck to what he was trying to do instead of crying about the past, we'd be fine now.

We were always going to be bottom after the first 10 games, even under DM, as the fixtures were brutal. Now was the time to get the wins, but we've wasted so much time going back to DM's playstyle that we have to almost start again with the changes needed to get us competitive. 

Ultimately Xisco bottled it, couldn't handle the pressure and had to go, but could Rohl have handled it either?

[Teddy Nickelarse]

23 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

It looked a better performance, was it better than WBA, probably not. Was it better than Leeds? Nope.

It's pretty much a more PR friendly version of what Xisco attempted.

The last 2 games have been the easiest opposition far, and with a team that has actually played together more than a couple of times. 

Due to injuries and late start. Xisco never actually played his way with a full squad, so it was makeshift all the way. 

By the time he got everyone in, he had already given in to pressure and gone back to 3 at the back.

Swansea and Boro are the teams that are now reaping the rewards, by sticking with the manager, trusting the plan and now they're fine.

If we had stuck to the plan, stuck to what he was trying to do instead of crying about the past, we'd be fine now.

We were always going to be bottom after the first 10 games, even under DM, as the fixtures were brutal. Now was the time to get the wins, but we've wasted so much time going back to DM's playstyle that we have to almost start again with the changes needed to get us competitive. 

Ultimately Xisco bottled it, couldn't handle the pressure and had to go, but could Rohl have handled it either?

Fair points tbf, Xisco was something of a victim but one who eventually completely lost it. I do however think that the new people are an upgrade - just my opinion. Out of the candidates mooted in the summer DR was the one I favoured at the time.

[Boracic Lint]

4 minutes ago, Teddy Nickelarse said:

Fair points tbf, Xisco was something of a victim but one who eventually completely lost it. I do however think that the new people are an upgrade - just my opinion. Out of the candidates mooted in the summer DR was the one I favoured at the time.

He probably was the best choice, but the club at the time was not the place or a new manager.

Whoever came in had effectively 3 weeks to recruit, as he spent his first 2 in Spain.

He had the pro DM media and half of social media going after every decision that wasn't what DM would have done, because it worked in League One it was going to work in the Championship. He had the anti Chansiri fans and the other half of social media wishing for him to fail to punish DC.

Players unfit and too slow to compete, unable to do what he needed. Players by their own admission not pulling their weight or following instruction. 

Would he have done any better? Would he have been able to take the pressure to go back to 352?

Look at the reception NT got for playing badly against terrible opposition. Best we've played apparently. It wasn't but Wednesday fans live in the past and we won playing like that last year, so they felt good watching it. There's too much emotion attached to players and the past and we'll never progress until we look at the club rationally. But that's for a different time.

[Teddy Nickelarse]

2 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

He probably was the best choice, but the club at the time was not the place or a new manager.

Whoever came in had effectively 3 weeks to recruit, as he spent his first 2 in Spain.

He had the pro DM media and half of social media going after every decision that wasn't what DM would have done, because it worked in League One it was going to work in the Championship. He had the anti Chansiri fans and the other half of social media wishing for him to fail to punish DC.

Players unfit and too slow to compete, unable to do what he needed. Players by their own admission not pulling their weight or following instruction. 

Would he have done any better? Would he have been able to take the pressure to go back to 352?

Look at the reception NT got for playing badly against terrible opposition. Best we've played apparently. It wasn't but Wednesday fans live in the past and we won playing like that last year, so they felt good watching it. There's too much emotion attached to players and the past and we'll never progress until we look at the club rationally. But that's for a different time.

Again you make some very good and fair points. For me though, in terms of going forward, especially  longer term, I think that we now have the kind of coaching team that we've  needed for ages.

[Boracic Lint]

7 minutes ago, Teddy Nickelarse said:

Again you make some very good and fair points. For me though, in terms of going forward, especially  longer term, I think that we now have the kind of coaching team that we've  needed for ages.

I agree, we would have been even better getting them in last year, which is essentially what Ipswich and Plymouth did.

Had DM left immediately after the playoff, it could have possibly worked, but the timing and manner of DMs departure, along with the players he left, including the 3 he resigned, pretty much screwed whichever manager came in after.

[Owling_Wolf]

1 hour ago, Boracic Lint said:

It looked a better performance, was it better than WBA, probably not. Was it better than Leeds? Nope.

It's pretty much a more PR friendly version of what Xisco attempted.

The last 2 games have been the easiest opposition far, and with a team that has actually played together more than a couple of times. 

Due to injuries and late start. Xisco never actually played his way with a full squad, so it was makeshift all the way. 

By the time he got everyone in, he had already given in to pressure and gone back to 3 at the back.

Swansea and Boro are the teams that are now reaping the rewards, by sticking with the manager, trusting the plan and now they're fine.

If we had stuck to the plan, stuck to what he was trying to do instead of crying about the past, we'd be fine now.

We were always going to be bottom after the first 10 games, even under DM, as the fixtures were brutal. Now was the time to get the wins, but we've wasted so much time going back to DM's playstyle that we have to almost start again with the changes needed to get us competitive. 

Ultimately Xisco bottled it, couldn't handle the pressure and had to go, but could Rohl have handled it either?

Yeh, you're right: let's get Xisco back!   Ffs!  🙄

[Boracic Lint]

3 minutes ago, Owling_Wolf said:

Yeh, you're right: let's get Xisco back!   Ffs!  🙄

Xisco bottled it. Through players, the press, fans. He couldn't handle the pressure and caved.

So he had to go.

Hopefully Rohl doesn't, but the things he's trying to bring to the team are essentially the same.

[Owling_Wolf]

1 hour ago, Boracic Lint said:

Xisco bottled it. Through players, the press, fans. He couldn't handle the pressure and caved.

So he had to go.

Hopefully Rohl doesn't, but the things he's trying to bring to the team are essentially the same.

🥱

[Bellsview]

Xisco didn’t bottle it. He was totally out of his depth and not up to the job.

Chansiri is now paying (literally) for his big, big error of judgement. Just hope what we have now is not too little, too late. Although in saying that, I’m more optimistic about us staying in the Championship than I was a couple of weeks ago.

And just as I was at the start of the season, I’d still happily take fourth bottom if offered it - even more so now given where we are.

 

[Boracic Lint]

1 hour ago, Bellsview said:

Xisco didn’t bottle it. He was totally out of his depth and not up to the job.

Chansiri is now paying (literally) for his big, big error of judgement. Just hope what we have now is not too little, too late. Although in saying that, I’m more optimistic about us staying in the Championship than I was a couple of weeks ago.

And just as I was at the start of the season, I’d still happily take fourth bottom if offered it - even more so now given where we are.

 

He was out of his depth. The job was too big. That's why he couldn't stick to what needed doing.

But a lot of what he was trying to do is the same thing that Rohl will try to do. Hopefully he has the clout/bollox/backing to see it through as the playstyle and team of last season need a root and branch overhaul to get even 4th bottom.

The issue with this club is like on one of the Gordon Ramsey shows.

The restaurant was successful before bit it isn't now. The menu is outdated, the staff been there for years and pretty much do what they want. It's living in the past. But because it's worked before, and it brings back good memories that's what we'll carry on with even though it's obviously not working now.

Same as now, the biggest hurdle is convincing the restaurant staff that change is needed and get them on board with the change or you're going under and there's no point being there.

Xisco failed to convince the fans, press and players that change was needed, so failed to turn it round.

[Otto_Man]

This bizarre view you have of thong songs "abilities" is mental. I saw all our home games, some of our away games and even some pre season games under him and I've still no clue what his "plan" was. 

What I did see was a group of over coached under performing players who had clearly been told shape and position were the be all and end all. A zonal marking system that saw us look like conceding every time the opposition had a set piece in our half and a manager who had no fucking clue... whatsoever.

One game under DR and it was better, the players clearly knew their jobs, we didn't look like we would concede easily and the manager seemed to have a plan

[Bellsview]

2 hours ago, Boracic Lint said:

He was out of his depth. The job was too big. That's why he couldn't stick to what needed doing.

But a lot of what he was trying to do is the same thing that Rohl will try to do. Hopefully he has the clout/bollox/backing to see it through as the playstyle and team of last season need a root and branch overhaul to get even 4th bottom.

The issue with this club is like on one of the Gordon Ramsey shows.

The restaurant was successful before bit it isn't now. The menu is outdated, the staff been there for years and pretty much do what they want. It's living in the past. But because it's worked before, and it brings back good memories that's what we'll carry on with even though it's obviously not working now.

Same as now, the biggest hurdle is convincing the restaurant staff that change is needed and get them on board with the change or you're going under and there's no point being there.

Xisco failed to convince the fans, press and players that change was needed, so failed to turn it round.

That analogy is great, in theory.

BUT!

The new ‘staff’ we’ve brought in can’t cook as well as those they’ve replaced and the front of house staff aren’t as engaging, welcoming or loved by loyal customers as the outgoing ones. 

So we’re now left with the new restaurant management trying to get the replacement staff up to speed and convince previously loyal customers and new ones that the menu and meals being served are good quality and worth paying for. Otherwise it’s back to bringing the old staff back, or a combination of both. 

All whilst the new restaurants in and around us (I say new, given we are in a new division as a club) are in a better financial position and are far more established and successful than ours.

[Otto_Man]

Anyone else hungry?

[Bellsview]

1 hour ago, Otto_Man said:

Anyone else hungry?

For success? Yep, absolutely starving for it!

[Lee]

To use the Ramsey analogy in the poor performing restaurants hotels....

Yep, miss managed for years and deliberately serve up shit food to the guy coming into help you.

Tantrums, some leave then come back because an arm has but around the shoulders.

THEN, ok I'm Gordon Ramsay with in the scheme of things a few dollar. I know this industry, simplify your menu and do it right, every time, with, largely the same chefs and oh by the way, we will invest into what your front of house looks like.

It's largely a poor comparison to a football club but if you put better systems in place, people buy into what you aim to do then a force can be generated.

Wednesday will take time, no doubt about it, but I am convinced that by the end of October a shift forward will be clear to see.

[mkowl]

I think we all understand change is needed. I kept hearing that Xisco was all about revolution not evolution.

Well perhaps the players were savvy enough to realise this revolution was like some crackpot leftie one. The outcome would be terrible and not work. And none of us could really work out what that entailed anyway. What radical way of football was trying to be introduced.

Just because Pep has success playing out from the back doesn't mean the rest of the world should follow. A good coach plays to the strengths of the players to start with and Xisco simply was too arrogant in his beliefs to do that 

 

[Boracic Lint]

There was nothing radical at all.

It was basic football.

DMs football was radical. No other team in the football league played that slow mishmash of styles.

They can't play 4 at the back? Bollocks. 2 years ago everyone was kicking off saying these players could only play 4 at the back and not fit a 352. Not one of these players was signed to fit a 352. Not one. They were all signed to play 433/4231. That includes the last 3 managers.

As for playing from the back, that was the players, not Xisco. He never intended to play it from the back. They fell back into it when they decided not to do what he asked.

All preseason he was trying to implement a system where the ball went across the back for a bit, then the keeper hit it onto the flanks. Delgado and Pato were the only ones to actually implement it, which is probably why he moved Delgado left. The playing from the back is the same shit we've been doing for 2 years, but it's somehow a Xisco innovation? The only defenders playing it forward in Xiscos system were supposed to be the fullbacks playing over the opposition fullbacks to the wingers.

The fact is, the squad wasn't fit enough to press, so he had to sit deep and when they got tired or down the players reverted back to what they knew, what we've done for a lot of the last 2 seasons, which was play it from the back with a panic hoof when pressed.

Rohl is going to try all the same basic things that Xisco did, the only difference is that he has to rely less on the older players and they've actually played a bit together now.

I used a bad anology with the restaurant thing, but my point stands, even now.

You can't change anything if the people involved don't believe that anything needs to change or want to change.

Too many people don't want to let go of last season or last seasons tactics and players, because of loyalty, good memories, blue tinted glasses or whatever and until they do, every manager not called Darren Moore will fail.

[mkowl]

I admire your tenacity Mr Lint in continuing the lone argument. Good job I never did that on Carlos.

Your last paragraph is interesting, I never got carried away with last season because as you rightly say that squad never really enthused me football wise. We were more flat track bullies, that tactically got found out on occasion and stumbled across the finishing line.

I never bought this was a decent Championship squad hiding in League 1. And I consider my thoughts are justified in that regard. 

The next stage recruitment is where the issue lies. It was so scattergun and failed to add any real quality