You gotta Röhl with it - Watford match thread.

[Boracic Lint]

22 minutes ago, mkowl said:

I admire your tenacity Mr Lint in continuing the lone argument. Good job I never did that on Carlos.

Your last paragraph is interesting, I never got carried away with last season because as you rightly say that squad never really enthused me football wise. We were more flat track bullies, that tactically got found out on occasion and stumbled across the finishing line.

I never bought this was a decent Championship squad hiding in League 1. And I consider my thoughts are justified in that regard. 

The next stage recruitment is where the issue lies. It was so scattergun and failed to add any real quality 

I agree completely about last season.

But the media and most of the more vocal social media were invested. "A team that got 96 points should be doing better." "Back to basics"

I'd say a few players were like that too, but more because under a new faster system they'll be obsolete than any desire to win games.

Look at the love in v Huddersfield, when the side that faced WBA and the one last week were much better. It was all about emotion, the feelings, nothing to do with actual football.

I'm not trying to absolve Xisco, he failed. But Rohl will face the same issues.

As for recruitment? What did anyone expect, really? He had 3 weeks to put half a side together, and we won't know how good/bad they are for a while yet, half of them only have a couple of games under their belt.

We needed youth and pace more than anything and we've done that. We still don't know what will happen with a settled side as we've not played one due to availability and fitness so far.

The tactics and side that go into January will be much closer to Xisco's than NT's, that's for sure.

[Owling_Wolf]

2 hours ago, Boracic Lint said:

I agree completely about last season.

But the media and most of the more vocal social media were invested. "A team that got 96 points should be doing better." "Back to basics"

I'd say a few players were like that too, but more because under a new faster system they'll be obsolete than any desire to win games.

Look at the love in v Huddersfield, when the side that faced WBA and the one last week were much better. It was all about emotion, the feelings, nothing to do with actual football.

I'm not trying to absolve Xisco, he failed. But Rohl will face the same issues.

As for recruitment? What did anyone expect, really? He had 3 weeks to put half a side together, and we won't know how good/bad they are for a while yet, half of them only have a couple of games under their belt.

We needed youth and pace more than anything and we've done that. We still don't know what will happen with a settled side as we've not played one due to availability and fitness so far.

The tactics and side that go into January will be much closer to Xisco's than NT's, that's for sure.

You know, I've never neen to a seance, but if I did, I'd expect it would feel a bit like this...    👀

[Mark]

4 hours ago, Boracic Lint said:

There was nothing radical at all.

It was basic football.

DMs football was radical. No other team in the football league played that slow mishmash of styles.

They can't play 4 at the back? Bollocks. 2 years ago everyone was kicking off saying these players could only play 4 at the back and not fit a 352. Not one of these players was signed to fit a 352. Not one. They were all signed to play 433/4231. That includes the last 3 managers.

As for playing from the back, that was the players, not Xisco. He never intended to play it from the back. They fell back into it when they decided not to do what he asked.

All preseason he was trying to implement a system where the ball went across the back for a bit, then the keeper hit it onto the flanks. Delgado and Pato were the only ones to actually implement it, which is probably why he moved Delgado left. The playing from the back is the same shit we've been doing for 2 years, but it's somehow a Xisco innovation? The only defenders playing it forward in Xiscos system were supposed to be the fullbacks playing over the opposition fullbacks to the wingers.

The fact is, the squad wasn't fit enough to press, so he had to sit deep and when they got tired or down the players reverted back to what they knew, what we've done for a lot of the last 2 seasons, which was play it from the back with a panic hoof when pressed.

Rohl is going to try all the same basic things that Xisco did, the only difference is that he has to rely less on the older players and they've actually played a bit together now.

I used a bad anology with the restaurant thing, but my point stands, even now.

You can't change anything if the people involved don't believe that anything needs to change or want to change.

Too many people don't want to let go of last season or last seasons tactics and players, because of loyalty, good memories, blue tinted glasses or whatever and until they do, every manager not called Darren Moore will fail.

If there was a manager called Darren Moore with these players he'd fail

[Ozzie]

Personally think we have a midfield 3 that would be ideal in this league but it's not being used. Bannan, Byers, Vaulks. (Luongo previously, but DM saw fit to break that).

The constant passing back when we get near their end is our undoing. Cant blame strikers when they're not on the pitch or the ball is in our third.

[Ozzie]

Was watching the game on iFollow as I'm overseas atm. Noticed Twatford bench had an iPad on a stand in front of the bench. Have we been done on the pen decision by unofficial VAR again?

 

 

[Tylluan]

1 hour ago, Ozzie said:

Was watching the game on iFollow as I'm overseas atm. Noticed Twatford bench had an iPad on a stand in front of the bench. Have we been done on the pen decision by unofficial VAR again?

 

 

Possibly the monitor for the GPS vests. There's an EFL ruling that states away teams have to be provided with exactly the same set up and systems as the home team. If there was a live feed going in then we'd have to have the same. 

[Andyben]

17 minutes ago, Tylluan said:

There's an EFL ruling that

...new to this wenzdi supporting lark are we 

[HoylandOwl]

9 hours ago, Boracic Lint said:

There was nothing radical at all.

It was basic football.

DMs football was radical. No other team in the football league played that slow mishmash of styles.

They can't play 4 at the back? Bollocks. 2 years ago everyone was kicking off saying these players could only play 4 at the back and not fit a 352. Not one of these players was signed to fit a 352. Not one. They were all signed to play 433/4231. That includes the last 3 managers.

As for playing from the back, that was the players, not Xisco. He never intended to play it from the back. They fell back into it when they decided not to do what he asked.

All preseason he was trying to implement a system where the ball went across the back for a bit, then the keeper hit it onto the flanks. Delgado and Pato were the only ones to actually implement it, which is probably why he moved Delgado left. The playing from the back is the same shit we've been doing for 2 years, but it's somehow a Xisco innovation? The only defenders playing it forward in Xiscos system were supposed to be the fullbacks playing over the opposition fullbacks to the wingers.

The fact is, the squad wasn't fit enough to press, so he had to sit deep and when they got tired or down the players reverted back to what they knew, what we've done for a lot of the last 2 seasons, which was play it from the back with a panic hoof when pressed.

Rohl is going to try all the same basic things that Xisco did, the only difference is that he has to rely less on the older players and they've actually played a bit together now.

I used a bad anology with the restaurant thing, but my point stands, even now.

You can't change anything if the people involved don't believe that anything needs to change or want to change.

Too many people don't want to let go of last season or last seasons tactics and players, because of loyalty, good memories, blue tinted glasses or whatever and until they do, every manager not called Darren Moore will fail.

Playing from the back was the players and not Xisco? So then, either DM didn't want the players to do that and they listened, for the most part. OR, they didn't listen to Xisco and did it anyway?

Vasquez is the epitome of playing it out from the back, he did it at every opportunity, even Dawson was trying it before Vasquez came in. Bambo Diaby, never been a ball playing centre back, Iorfa the same. Go back to last season, Ihiekwe, not a ball playing centre back. 

 

[TheExile]

On 22/10/2023 at 12:51, Boracic Lint said:

Role wouldn't have been allowed 10 games. He would have ended up the same as Xisco, probably worse having no previous as a manager.

He would have got the same 'we can only play one way' 'giz Darren back' '96 points' bollox that Xisco caved to and been sacked by now.

Only by having Xisco before him will he have the time to put anything in, as anything a new manager did would have been wrong, too many were invested in DM and the anti Chansiri stance to let a new manager grow.

He’s definitely benefitting from not being the man immediately after Moore. But simply by playing higher up the pitch rather than getting stuck on the edge of our own area with no outlet would likely mean that he picked up more points than xisco who was a bad fit and got too many decisions wrong. It’s not the fans fault we had 2 points in 10 games 

[TheExile]

Also I think that whilst many fans were not happy with Moore going, xisco wasn’t automatically damned, there was the usual positivity with xisco coming in and no one for the good of the club would  really want another change in principle after ten games.  There was the acceptance that it would take time to develop something different but I think many could see from very early on (eldense) that something wasn’t right there also in terms of what the plan was on the pitch and it snowballed very quickly along with some tetchy interviews and hopeless performances.
 

Many were dying to see something from xisco but it wasn’t there. Rohl will have the benefit of just not being him but he needs a season long equivalent of Peterborough at home now to pull the escape off 

[KrolMong]

That Xisco Wednesday team, at no point in any game, did they look like they had a plan. That was from Pre-season all the way up to his last game. It didn’t look coached, our attacking set pieces seemed to have no plan, and we played a zonal set up that no one in the team understood. There was clearly no fitness work being done as well. Yes, most of the players aren’t good enough at this level, but to not look like there is an idea or plan is frankly embarrassing.

[Boracic Lint]

40 minutes ago, KrolMong said:

That Xisco Wednesday team, at no point in any game, did they look like they had a plan. That was from Pre-season all the way up to his last game. It didn’t look coached, our attacking set pieces seemed to have no plan, and we played a zonal set up that no one in the team understood. There was clearly no fitness work being done as well. Yes, most of the players aren’t good enough at this level, but to not look like there is an idea or plan is frankly embarrassing.

He played it in the last Spain game, v Chesterfield and Luton.

Remember the two young lads overlapping v Chesterfield?

That was part of the plan. The issue was that only the right side ever did it, the left just didn't.

Defence play it laterally to draw opposition in then simple ball back to keeper. Keeper then plays it over to the sideline around halfway, knock down to fullback or midfield, winger, striker and opposite winger make runs forward and it either goes straight forward or diagonally to the other flank. If the winger gets it, the fullback overlaps and makes the run.

Simple. Not rocket science or revolutionary.

He tried it with Marvin on the right in Spain and had swapped him with Pato half way through the game because Marvin wasn't doing what he asked. Probably what caused the issues. Think he did it v Chesterfield too.

This is what I meant by buy in from the players. He had the start of a plan working on the right, but on the left, with Bannan and Windass either couldn't or wouldn't implement it so it never made it to the league games. The u21 lads had it down so I don't think it was couldn't. 

The only time it worked on the left was when Smith came across v Luton and put Delgado through.

Although not obvious at first, the plan was there. Ultimately the implementation wasn't. He also had the start of an organised press going, with Pato, Smith and Delgado, but again, nobody else, so that got binned too.

[mkowl]

As plans go I would have had more confidence if Baldrick had devised them.

 

[TheExile]

In implementing the plan it did lose us some of our core strengths ie moving Windass and Johnson, neutralising our top scorer (benched). Relying on two full backs to deliver a ball to a lone striker with no support with those full backs being Paterson and Famewo neither of whom can really cross. 
 

I think the Diaby injury was a huge blow for trying to get some foot hold in terms of team structure but generally speaking it was the classic - come in with blueprint and make players fit rather than vice versa. Even Jokanovic who has more promotions looked useless doing that across the city. If xisco/rohl whoever came in during the summer built on some of the strengths I think we’d still be struggling but not as badly. 
 

Anyhow I’m guessing the plan now will be to try and stay within a few wins of safety by the time January arrives 

[Boracic Lint]

19 minutes ago, TheExile said:

In implementing the plan it did lose us some of our core strengths ie moving Windass and Johnson, neutralising our top scorer (benched). Relying on two full backs to deliver a ball to a lone striker with no support with those full backs being Paterson and Famewo neither of whom can really cross. 
 

I think the Diaby injury was a huge blow for trying to get some foot hold in terms of team structure but generally speaking it was the classic - come in with blueprint and make players fit rather than vice versa. Even Jokanovic who has more promotions looked useless doing that across the city. If xisco/rohl whoever came in during the summer built on some of the strengths I think we’d still be struggling but not as badly. 
 

Anyhow I’m guessing the plan now will be to try and stay within a few wins of safety by the time January arrives 

But what were our strengths that transfer up a level?

We relied on deep balls into the box or a bit of magic from someone.

At the end of the season we literally packed every striker into the team and hoofed it into the box, hoping to get something from the second ball.

Not going to work anymore. The defenders are better in the air, they pick up second balls faster, the magic that worked in League One is bang average in the Championship.

He brought in players to fit the blueprint, we also had players who should fit it. His biggest problem was having to fit some players in before his own were ready, then bowing to pressure by adjusting to fit the players.

What more did you want him to do?

He went back to 352. He slowed it down. Basically by the end it was last season's formation and tactics. And they made us worse.

We were better in the first 4 games than the last 4, when he did what everyone wanted him to do.

[TheExile]

2 hours ago, Boracic Lint said:

But what were our strengths that transfer up a level?

We relied on deep balls into the box or a bit of magic from someone.

At the end of the season we literally packed every striker into the team and hoofed it into the box, hoping to get something from the second ball.

Not going to work anymore. The defenders are better in the air, they pick up second balls faster, the magic that worked in League One is bang average in the Championship.

He brought in players to fit the blueprint, we also had players who should fit it. His biggest problem was having to fit some players in before his own were ready, then bowing to pressure by adjusting to fit the players.

What more did you want him to do?

He went back to 352. He slowed it down. Basically by the end it was last season's formation and tactics. And they made us worse.

We were better in the first 4 games than the last 4, when he did what everyone wanted him to do.

What more did I want him to do? For a start avoid turning a relatively close if not limited team into a bunch of strangers. I think to improve what we had we mainly needed some energy in midfield and more investment in some pace up front or out wide. 
 

Transferable strengths for a team that is coming up but poor at this level would be what you expect really and what we and others have relied on in the past. Making sure you’re difficult to beat, not inviting pressure on your own defence by passing across your back line and having your gk lose the ball. Clear lines from set pieces, mark someone. Make sure people won’t enjoy playing against you. We were passive.

If you have a bit of momentum from having a left sided player getting 1 or 2 good crosses over from that side as the primary means of attacking. Unless there’s investment in the team, at least do that and let that fail before ripping it up and assuming it won’t work for various reasons. If Josh Windass has had two really productive seasons playing centrally don’t move him wide as the ball carrier when he’s lost a bit of pace over distances. Diaby might have changed this but the lack of energy in midfield was evident so he stuck Gregory in there.

Absolutely agree what we had in L1 was not going to do well in that championship and a manager coming into that situation is on a tight spot, but to point to an alternative as the right thing to do, sign 12 players and get shellacked for long spells most weeks anyway (because what made us effective wasn’t an option?) isn’t really suggesting he was onto anything, it’s all tactical theory unless it works . First four games we shipped 9 goals so if that was the promising bit…

Either way this season was going to be rough as soon as DM left us. What we did next was quite key and these players who xisco  needed time to be ready have  not pulled up any trees either. There hasn’t been enough investment in the squad which isn’t the managers fault but to try and do what he did in that situation was just the wrong call and a better organised team even if struggling for goals would have more of a basis to build on than what we have now. IMO at least, we will never know. But what we do know is that we have surpassed club and EFL records for being shit…but what else did we want him to do…

Edited October 24, 2023 by TheExile