mkowl Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 Just now, Reesh said: Like every Sheffielder you've previously slated you've fallen into their mentality.... Wanting things on the cheap Do you think it's cheap at 50m plus a contingent payment of 50m ? I mean you deal with SME owners and the answer you invariably give to their question "how much is my business worth" is "what someone is prepared to pay for it" But I can safely say for one with 10 years of trading losses, fairly average employees, no management systems and fixed assets that need replacing you wouldn't be saying "every penny you put in" You are falling for the Sheffielder trap of thinking our history and tradition is worth a lot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyben Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 The biggest mistake is thinking buying or owning a football club is a business that conforms to the same rules as a butchers shop or widget maker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyben Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 15 minutes ago, KrolMong said: What does everyone think a fair price is for us? So, imagine you have a half a billion knocking about. What are you offering for Wednesday? 12 minutes ago, Andyben said: 80m with a bonus payment on PL in 5years. But if I really wanted the club and he wanted £100m I'd pay it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 7 minutes ago, KrolMong said: What does everyone think a fair price is for us? So, imagine you have a half a billion knocking about. What are you offering for Wednesday? I have suggested an opening gambit of 50m + 50m contingent There would always be wiggle room and the 80m plus contingent that Andyben suggests would be the top line. You have to look at what you are physically buying, I mean you can get actual valuations for the stadium (not 60m for sure), the training facilities, down to the forks in hospitality. You could value the playing squad You then get the intangible of - a place in the EFL (value determined by which League we are in), the value of future TV contracts - the history and tradition, yep the loyalty of the fan base - the value of the academy, scouting networks, admin employees, information systems, database You would then deduct any liabilities, loans etc and contingent liabilities But any company valuation is a mix of art and science and indeed sentiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyben Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 (edited) This is why the most viable option is to do what INEOS have done and buy smaller share but take on costs of running and improving club during the option period. £30-50m up front and £25m-£30m each season for three years Unless you've a bottomless pit of cash Edited March 30 by Andyben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 4 minutes ago, Andyben said: But if I really wanted the club and he wanted £100m I'd pay it And my last post uses the word sentiment. I don't dispute that owning and running a football club takes on totally different rules to just about every other business going. The kudos of saying I own a football club is why Chansiri throws in 10m a year when you would walk from every other business. Like I say there are some hefty intangibles to value and a place in the EFL is the top one. Because you can't just run a start up to achieve that - well it would take 10 years min Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrolMong Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 I have the value at less than 30 million. Chansiris debts are irrelevant here. And we have no outside debt. Hillsborough is worth 7/8ths of nothing, and the training ground burns money to actually get worse. If you look at it, we generate about 24 million in revenue to make 4 million loss, and is very little value in the playing squad or the academy. So, if we are a Championship club, I’m going in with a lock stock bid of 50 million, DC can recoup some of his losses.. If we are a league one club, I’m taking 20 million off that. My understanding was that Birmingham were bought for about 15 million, but that also picked up a lot of debt and a ground in a mess but, and outstanding training set up and academy. Hudderfield were picked up for less than 30 million including debt write off. We are worth very little. Think back, what did Milan buy us for? It was way less than 20 million right? That value will not have increased much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 5 minutes ago, Andyben said: This is why the most viable option is to do what INEOS have done and buy smaller share but take on costs of running and improving club during the option period. £30-50m up front and £25m-£30m each season for three years Unless you've a bottomless pit of cash Notwithstanding the upfront cost of buying Man U. Again football is no ordinary business, but if you look at a start up, that then may get EIS funding, then private equity etc etc. The founders / owners give up equity in exchange for funds and expertise to grow the company. The key ingredient is the owners accept they can't do it all and need to lose 100% control Most SME businesses stick at £1m turnover because they refuse to accept either or both the above, or frankly happy with their lot The question is twofold with SWFC - would Chansiri be prepared to let an Ineos do that and indeed would an Ineos even look at SWFC as the target I mean I am more optimistic on the latter than the former Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyben Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 DC is clever enough to realise that having someone else save his annual costs, plus spend their own money to improve team will exponentially increase likelihood of the PL bonus. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyben Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 2 minutes ago, mkowl said: Again football is no ordinary business, So don't waste time comparing them then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrolMong Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 My argument against Chansiri requesting that I cover some of his losses is that those losses are standard football debt, but it was his job to mitigate them which he didn’t do. So, he needs to accept that and write it off. I’m valuing the ground and training ground at 15 million combined. And that is purely for the land it sits on (and I am being generous). I know that I can literally do nothing with both other than flog the land and move elsewhere. So, that becomes my cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 6 minutes ago, KrolMong said: I have the value at less than 30 million. Chansiris debts are irrelevant here. And we have no outside debt. Hillsborough is worth 7/8ths of nothing, and the training ground burns money to actually get worse. If you look at it, we generate about 24 million in revenue to make 4 million loss, and is very little value in the playing squad or the academy. So, if we are a Championship club, I’m going in with a lock stock bid of 50 million, DC can recoup some of his losses.. If we are a league one club, I’m taking 20 million off that. My understanding was that Birmingham were bought for about 15 million, but that also picked up a lot of debt and a ground in a mess but, and outstanding training set up and academy. Hudderfield were picked up for less than 30 million including debt write off. We are worth very little. Think back, what did Milan buy us for? It was way less than 20 million right? That value will not have increased much. 2 key parts of that The value of any business is often benchmarked by similar sales elsewhere. So what Brum and Huddersfield got sold for do set the parameters to a degree Mandaric sold for about 40m so the question is as it increased in value from that starting point. I mean that is a very hawkish valuation but I can only really argue the value of an EFL place and the name Sheffield Wednesday both very judgemental. I mean the place in the Championship means a loss of 10m a season, hardly a selling point. Ok it's a gateway to the EPL and losing 25m a season 😑 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 7 minutes ago, Andyben said: So don't waste time comparing them then? But elements still apply Ineos aren't doing this for fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 26 minutes ago, Andyben said: DC is clever enough to realise that having someone else save his annual costs, plus spend their own money to improve team will exponentially increase likelihood of the PL bonus. That is a very sweeping statement and does not seem to accord to the reality of how the Club is run day to day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tylluan Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 @KrolMong Using the recent Ipswich investment as a benchmark (also noting that all the PR blurb around that said UPTO £105m) I'd put two offers on the table. £60m for the club. DC keeps the ground but rent is kept at the already agreed repayment structure for the next five years. After that I have an option to buy the ground back at whatever is left to pay on the original 'purchase' price. That would mean Sheffield 3 is responsible for general upkeep and any updating requirements specified by relevant authorities for 5 years and would enable me to spend on the playing side. Another £60m would be set aside, in a shell company, for investment to pay for the ground after 5 years. If I've got half a billion going spare then I'd know where to invest. 5 years would also give me plenty of time to look for a new ground site (fuck the traditionalists, it's my club now) Or I take the lot for AB's £80m, possibly pushing to £90m, but no PL bonus payment. I'd use Pubehead's umbrella principle and stick the club, as a shareholder (or however Boro sits) underneath my highest profit generator and use the dividends to part fund the club. This then falls in line with the new 80% revenue spend that's coming in. Other revenue will be generated by organising reciprocal, over market value, sponsorship deals. Might be a bit unethical (ahem) but one of my untraceable offshore investment portfolios 'invests' in a chain that leads to someone buying Jones Ltd and sponsoring the club for stupid amounts a season. I'd also name each one of the stands after my companies on a yearly sponsorship deal. £100m is invested to pay for ground improvements. £50m is set aside to pay to move away from Middlewood. In either case there's a five year and ten year plan put in place on the playing side and we follow the Brighton model. If Graham Potter fancies it then he becomes the new DoF. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owling_Wolf Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 1 hour ago, KrolMong said: My argument against Chansiri requesting that I cover some of his losses is that those losses are standard football debt, but it was his job to mitigate them which he didn’t do. So, he needs to accept that and write it off. I’m valuing the ground and training ground at 15 million combined. And that is purely for the land it sits on (and I am being generous). I know that I can literally do nothing with both other than flog the land and move elsewhere. So, that becomes my cost. We don't own the land at Middlewood Rd. The Council do: we lease it from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyben Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 59 minutes ago, Owling_Wolf said: We don't own the land at Middlewood Rd. The Council do: we lease it from them. The lease has value. 99% of all the multi million pound houses in Central London are exactly the same 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tewksbury Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 Football clubs are more like antiques or curios than businesses. A painting has no material value, the cost is what people are willing to pay for it or what people are willing to sell it for. As long as Chansiri is happy to keep going, and doesn't want to or have to sell, the club is worth whatever he says it is, the material cost of the parts of the club are irrelevant. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owling_Wolf Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 1 hour ago, Andyben said: The lease has value. 99% of all the multi million pound houses in Central London are exactly the same Seems an apposite comparison. 👀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Leicester announced losses of nearly 90m for last season and 3 year rolling losses of £215m cap being 105m over that period. See if the EPL actually have the authority for those charges to stick I read the Leicester forum when this first broke, they seemed far too confident that by scrolling between the leagues you could escape anyone actually sanctioning you. Let's hope they are wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyben Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Unless they get a 60pt deduction this season who cares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 9 minutes ago, Andyben said: Unless they get a 60pt deduction this season who cares Principal of the matter as far as I am concerned - don't like seeing those cheating the system prosper whether it impacts us or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyben Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 They've been cheating for 25 years and got away with it. Twice in admin. The shithouse Lineker pleading their case. They won't change unless they get given a Rangers style punishment. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reesh Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 22 minutes ago, Andyben said: They've been cheating for 25 years and got away with it. Twice in admin. The shithouse Lineker pleading their case. They won't change unless they get given a Rangers style punishment. AB knows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tylluan Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Everton have posted another £89m loss for 22/23. They're seriously fucked 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 46 minutes ago, Andyben said: They've been cheating for 25 years and got away with it. Twice in admin. The shithouse Lineker pleading their case. They won't change unless they get given a Rangers style punishment. Hopefully they do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 (edited) Brighton on the other hand made over 100m profit, though massively impacted by player profit sales I suppose it triggers an entire debate on whether FFP is right to be applied. Does it favour the top sides with larger revenues - absolutely Does it prevent the big teams asset stripping and building large squads of under utilised players - probably Does it act as a bit of an inflationary cap as clubs like Chelsea and Newcastle are limited at the cash they can spend - appears to be You can ask many other questions, are the impacts now seeing season ticket price inflation or changes eg Tottenham gazumping over 65s for the tourist shilling Edited April 2 by mkowl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirstys 12th Pint Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 4 hours ago, mkowl said: Leicester announced losses of nearly 90m for last season and 3 year rolling losses of £215m cap being 105m over that period. See if the EPL actually have the authority for those charges to stick I read the Leicester forum when this first broke, they seemed far too confident that by scrolling between the leagues you could escape anyone actually sanctioning you. Let's hope they are wrong. Does this include the sales of Fofana, Maddison and Barnes ? If so that is eye-watering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelters Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Let’s not forget Leicester fucked us over for George Hirst too. As for FFP, in the PL the limit of losses should be based on Champions League revenues, in the Championship it should be based on parachute payments. Anything else just entrenches a lack of fair competition. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoylandOwl Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Premier League rules on FFP are changing ….. https://www.football.london/premier-league/premier-league-launch-new-ffp-28764858.amp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 58 minutes ago, HoylandOwl said: Premier League rules on FFP are changing ….. https://www.football.london/premier-league/premier-league-launch-new-ffp-28764858.amp Can't believe that Man City and Newcastle voted against the change 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirstys 12th Pint Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 On 30/03/2024 at 09:23, KrolMong said: I have the value at less than 30 million. Chansiris debts are irrelevant here. And we have no outside debt. Hillsborough is worth 7/8ths of nothing, and the training ground burns money to actually get worse. If you look at it, we generate about 24 million in revenue to make 4 million loss, and is very little value in the playing squad or the academy. Think KM's valuation is certainly more realistic with regards the current state of the club, squad and infrastructure but as we know Chansiri may see this totally different and the value is more what someone is willing to pay. The squad has very few assets aside from the potential of the younger elements of the squad. The ground probably has a low value as anything other than a Football Ground even as a commercial of residential plot. The cost of works required on the ground probably far outweighs the value of it. Heard a couple of months ago that extensive work is required particularly on the North. Middlewood Road - do we own the training ground or is this leased from the Council ? If leased again little value. Ultimately for any Buyer the bulk of the value would be for owning Sheffield Wednesday FC and its history. I'm not anti Chansiri but do feel his value of the Club and the costs to improve virtually everything would put any serious Buyer off especially without any true connection to the Club when other options are available to purchase which are probably on a firmer footing. What does stand us in good stead is we are debt frre seemingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tylluan Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 1 hour ago, HoylandOwl said: Premier League rules on FFP are changing ….. https://www.football.london/premier-league/premier-league-launch-new-ffp-28764858.amp And here's the get out of jail free card "The clubs will now have the burden of proof to show that deals with associated companies are of "fair market value",The clubs will be required to provide a declaration from a director of the associated party that the deal is considered to be fair.' All a club like Man City has to do is determine their value within the Premier League's new 4 year £6.7bn tv rights deal and act accordingly. New stadium naming rights sponsorship at £400m over the same timeframe and a director at Etihad Airways says it's fair market value based on PL and Sky projected viewing figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reesh Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 https://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/football/sheffield-wednesday/sheffield-wednesday-season-ticket-sales-confirmed-club-not-blacklisted-amid-paypal-concerns-4577847 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 6 minutes ago, Reesh said: https://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/football/sheffield-wednesday/sheffield-wednesday-season-ticket-sales-confirmed-club-not-blacklisted-amid-paypal-concerns-4577847 The numbers are quite interesting on season ticket sale numbers 13k season tickets so far - pretty decent 5k reduction year on year - 30% down on renewals at this stage not so good Reflection of league position, fans voting with their feet, anti Chansiri vibes, cost of living, natural churn, availability of cough alternative viewing methods, number of games on TV anyway, fucking about with kick offs and quantum of midweek games - combination of them all the above in reality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tewksbury Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 1 hour ago, mkowl said: The numbers are quite interesting on season ticket sale numbers 13k season tickets so far - pretty decent 5k reduction year on year - 30% down on renewals at this stage not so good Reflection of league position, fans voting with their feet, anti Chansiri vibes, cost of living, natural churn, availability of cough alternative viewing methods, number of games on TV anyway, fucking about with kick offs and quantum of midweek games - combination of them all the above in reality 5k reduction in sales from the start of the season. We still have 4 months and 11 bajillion phases before then. There won't be a massive difference in the end. Relegation a bit lower, stay up a bit higher. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reesh Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 The post was more to do with the fact that club aren't struggling with finance options and you can still use a debit or credit card despite @bazapepssaying we can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 5 hours ago, Tewksbury said: 5k reduction in sales from the start of the season. We still have 4 months and 11 bajillion phases before then. There won't be a massive difference in the end. Relegation a bit lower, stay up a bit higher. I thought it said like for like but I didn't delve into it the detail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 2 minutes ago, mkowl said: I thought it said like for like but I didn't delve into it the detail Ok I should have read it 😅 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyben Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 1 minute ago, mkowl said: Ok I should have read it 😅 I think you'll find the over arching theme of this thread is such that anyone can make sweeping statements and comments without being in possession of, or by the simple ignorance of, a trifling matter like facts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 31 minutes ago, Andyben said: I think you'll find the over arching theme of this thread is such that anyone can make sweeping statements and comments without being in possession of, or by the simple ignorance of, a trifling matter like facts. Facts are so last year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoylandOwl Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 11 minutes ago, mkowl said: Facts are so last year And get in the way of a bad argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyben Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 9 hours ago, mkowl said: Facts are so last year 9 hours ago, HoylandOwl said: And get in the way of a bad argument. Can we change the background of this thread to piss yellow pls. Then you can post some bollocks and if pulled up on it apparently it's OK to say 'that wasn't me so I can't answer that' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkowl Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Do we actually know fact from facts these days. When you read that one of the BBC contributors to its Reality Checker page is biased ! But I guess on here we do at least call out nonsense. But even when I comment on the accounts it is an educated guess at what could be going on, because there is limited information available to truly say its a fact. Even this season ticket point, you get half the information (then you fuck up reading it like I did) but it begs more questions anyway. But that information will never get in the public domain as its commercially sensitive. So you discuss a topic of interest, but never with the detailed info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skamp Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 It's only a fact if you type FACT. T'is a well know fact is that. FACT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto_Man Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 (edited) They're not being presented as facts though. They're ad hoc comments from a supporter meeting that are being used to support arguments (which wasn't there intended purpose). The 'facts' would appear to be; - We have sold c13k season tickets so far for next season - This season we have c18k season tickets holders The conclusion that probably can be drawn is that both this season and last a certain number of supporters will wait to see what division we're in before purchasing their season tickets, but crucially no one can confirm how many that was last season or this. This isn't a fact, but I seem to remember a figure of 'more than 10k' being bandied about after the first window last year Edited April 4 by Otto_Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirstys 12th Pint Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 I'm sure a fair number will have purchased season tickets in May 2023 as a vehicle to gain priority for Wembley tickets and also a number will have purchased upon promotion. Its the reality of Championship v League One. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoylandOwl Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 5 minutes ago, Hirstys 12th Pint said: I'm sure a fair number will have purchased season tickets in May 2023 as a vehicle to gain priority for Wembley tickets and also a number will have purchased upon promotion. Its the reality of Championship v League One. Fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto_Man Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 4 minutes ago, Hirstys 12th Pint said: I'm sure a fair number will have purchased season tickets in May 2023 as a vehicle to gain priority for Wembley tickets and also a number will have purchased upon promotion. Its the reality of Championship v League One. I'm 100% certain there will have been as there were tons moaning about the increase, but I can't provide a number or present it as a fact... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tewksbury Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 (edited) The odds of us being in League One this season were massive when the season tickets went on sale last season, promotion was pretty much guaranteed, so there's bound to be a lot more waiting this year. Edited April 4 by Tewksbury 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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