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12 minutes ago, BraddersTim said:

I honestly don't think that he's that bothered about this election. Imo he's after picking up the pieces and building for the next one as the UK Trump.

Did you watch it?

He appears to be very much up for it and energised.

Its very worth while even if you don't like him or his policies. Quite revealing about his disdain for the tories and also what he sees to be reforms role, and particularly his role in opposition to a Labour government.

Edited by Andyben
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I've seen quite a few clips of different interviews, yes he sounds convincing but he's a conman and he's very good at it.

I do agree with you though in the main, I just think that he sees this election as a stepping stone that's all, by the next one he wants to set this country up as right wing vs left wing as per the USA.  He'll use the mad elements of the Tories and the Reform/UKIP and Tommy Robinson element to generate his support base.

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The funniest aspect of Farage standing is on X when the wokerati froth at the mouth, the ones saying ignore him and there are 200 replies on the thread 

I mean I don't like Farage or the underlings like Tommy Robinson and what they stand for, but some of the points raised are salient (ok some are a bit racist as well). They are saying things that the mainstream parties or media simply don't or daren't, that we are getting a different type of sectarianism in certain parts of the country, that there is 2 tier policing, the London centric view of immigration etc etc  

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2 hours ago, BraddersTim said:

I've seen quite a few clips of different interviews, yes he sounds convincing but he's a conman and he's very good at it.

is a con man someone who puts his arms around you, pulling you close into his bosom and whispering all the things you wish to hear before robbing you blind?  

Hmm.  Who does that sound like?

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36 minutes ago, Skamp said:

is a con man someone who puts his arms around you, pulling you close into his bosom and whispering all the things you wish to hear before robbing you blind?  

Hmm.  Who does that sound like?

Nigel Farage?

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The debate last night was dreadful.  The polls say Starmer won on the key issues but I thought it was just depressingly bad.  The format was terrible, the moderating was abysmal.  It doesn't matter a jot in terms of the election result but it goes to highlight how shite our politicians have become in the last 15 years.

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6 hours ago, BraddersTim said:

The debate last night was dreadful.  The polls say Starmer won on the key issues but I thought it was just depressingly bad.  The format was terrible, the moderating was abysmal.  It doesn't matter a jot in terms of the election result but it goes to highlight how shite our politicians have become in the last 15 years.

I don't disagree on your last point. I mean there is always style over substance when it comes to politics. But as Boris 100% showed, you can have bundles of political charisma, it can get you elected, but you don't keep the job because you are to being PM as Wayne Rooney is to being a football manager. 

My long gripe is short termism, they prefer to be engaged in the politics but nothing that helps actually improve the country. They talk about training UK nurses, but I know from my daughters experience the system is inadequate, the attrition rate is 20% and above, fuck it the VISA rules let's us head hunt loads from poorer nations. 

There is a plan about apprenticeships but the current system is crap in many areas. The wife's nephew did the hard yards to get an engineering one, 4 weeks later the 6 newbies were told there is no role. The colleges then said now too late to do owt else. Tbf he got off his arse and got another job, but they can quote the numbers all they want its a waste of time if the back up is not there. That would take 5 - 10 years. And that is why these policies are all mouth and no trousers 

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25 minutes ago, BraddersTim said:

Serious question - Is Sunak deliberately trying to lose by as much as possible to take revenge on the plotters in his party or is he just really really bad at politics?

 

The best conspiracy theory is he has a large bet on to lose by a huge margin 

A consistent theme I hear - politically biased as it is to more centre right business owners - is what a disappointment he has been as PM. Thought he would be different to the complete self buffoonery incompetence of Boris, the utter madness of Truss, a more considered studious approach. Nope just shite. If you are going to run a presidential type campaign then you can afforf zero mistakes 

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8 minutes ago, mkowl said:

The best conspiracy theory is he has a large bet on to lose by a huge margin 

A consistent theme I hear - politically biased as it is to more centre right business owners - is what a disappointment he has been as PM. Thought he would be different to the complete self buffoonery incompetence of Boris, the utter madness of Truss, a more considered studious approach. Nope just shite. If you are going to run a presidential type campaign then you can afforf zero mistakes 

Agreed.  

Even opponents thought after Johnson/Truss "at least there's an adult in the room".  Turns out that there isn't.  

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1 hour ago, BraddersTim said:

Serious question - Is Sunak deliberately trying to lose by as much as possible to take revenge on the plotters in his party or is he just really really bad at politics?

 

He's scored an almighty own goal here and you may be on to something. 

 

Shit. I think I might have agreed with you on something for the first time on this thread.

 

* go's for a lie down *

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20 minutes ago, Skamp said:

He's scored an almighty own goal here and you may be on to something. 

 

Shit. I think I might have agreed with you on something for the first time on this thread.

 

* go's for a lie down *

I can feel your pain 😂

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38 minutes ago, Andyben said:

Explain

 

I think the market reaction explained that without me having to expand the argument

I will concur that some of the reforms, in time, deserved exploring further but the impact of spooking the markets and thereafter the impact on the economy cannot be justified 

She is also bat shit crazy 

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6 minutes ago, mkowl said:

 

47 minutes ago, Andyben said:

Explain

 

I think the market reaction explained that without me having to expand the argument

 

Kev.

This is bollocks by the way.

The increase in gilt yields had already been priced into the market well before her announcement in the mini budget.

But the media jumped on it and blamed her. 

If you look at what she was actually proposing it make complete and utter economic sense

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Just watching the Green Party's election broadcast.

 

Fuck me, they've out Laboured Labour in promising to spend money like it's going out of fashion without explaining where their magic money tree is planted.

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3 hours ago, Andyben said:

Kev.

This is bollocks by the way.

The increase in gilt yields had already been priced into the market well before her announcement in the mini budget.

But the media jumped on it and blamed her. 

If you look at what she was actually proposing it make complete and utter economic sense

Yep if you live in cloud cuckoo land 

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39 minutes ago, Skamp said:

Just watching the Green Party's election broadcast.

 

Fuck me, they've out Laboured Labour in promising to spend money like it's going out of fashion without explaining where their magic money tree is planted.

In a organic patch presumably.

I pointed out on X their hypocrisy. Caroline Lucas supporting the policy of not restricting child benefit to just 2 children. Surely given the cost of natural resources expended by a developed nation human you should be supporting population reductions 

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3 minutes ago, Andyben said:

Is that what I said?

The problem with the Budget aside from crashing the forex rate was that it relied on Govt borrowing to fund tax cuts, that you hoped would create economic growth and presumably this would trickle down to the masses.

I hate to say the reality is it would pour into the higher earners and dribble for the rest of us. 

It was not that dis similar to the Keynesian approach that Govt spending via borrowing creates the economic growth

The UK had generous corporate tax rates, incentives to invest but yet our capital investment and overall productivity remained low.

The problem was that at a day to day level, all the core things that facilitate us, the NHS, education, the care system, transport network are failing somewhat. 

I would say the general public want some middle ground between taxation raised, spending on said core services and a safety net in place for those that cannot look after themselves.

 

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22 minutes ago, mkowl said:

The problem with the Budget aside from crashing the forex rate was that it relied on Govt borrowing to fund tax cuts, that you hoped would create economic growth and presumably this would trickle down to the masses.

I hate to say the reality is it would pour into the higher earners and dribble for the rest of us. 

It was not that dis similar to the Keynesian approach that Govt spending via borrowing creates the economic growth

The UK had generous corporate tax rates, incentives to invest but yet our capital investment and overall productivity remained low.

The problem was that at a day to day level, all the core things that facilitate us, the NHS, education, the care system, transport network are failing somewhat. 

I would say the general public want some middle ground between taxation raised, spending on said core services and a safety net in place for those that cannot look after themselves.

 

It had nothing to do with forex rates BTW.

That was a tertiary effect 

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18 minutes ago, Andyben said:

It had nothing to do with forex rates BTW.

That was a tertiary effect 

And that is the nub of any economic policy, you may plan to do x to achieve y but the point being the change in x impacts a, b, c etc etc, but b and c impacts d, which then actually impacts x. The classic circular function.

Ok the economists in anoraks - the econometric guys try to get their equations to plot this but the mapping of the past is not necessarily a guarantee of the future.

 

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45 minutes ago, Andyben said:

Did I say I supported Truss?

Is that what I said?

 

I'm guessing you agree that I didn't.

What I will say is that the mini budget under her was the first time in decades that truly conservative economic policies were enacted, and the LDI bubble bursting at the same time (which had nothing to do with what KK was trying to do) was jumped on by the media as bejng his fault, even though the markets had priced this out for weeks and if there was no  KK minibudget , it would still have happened but the bla e would have prob been Brexit or something similar.

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10 hours ago, Andyben said:

But that is one person's opinion doesn't mean its right.

Perhaps the economy does need a jolt from somewhere. And some of the suggestions, in time, were a direction of travel I could accept. But tax reductions should arise when the circumstances are appropriate, in itself I don't think it works. Flip that and increasing tax for the Govt to spend is equally not going to work. 

Perhaps I am simply dull in thinking what we have, a balance between public sector provision for core needs working alongside the private sector doing the rest is actually OK.

Not that this isn't room for massive improvements. The metric for the NHS or education is how much is spent in £s. Never how effectively the £s are spent. Do you want the State running everything, the recent Post Office scandal gives an answer to that.

Do I want private companies running core infrastructure probably not, Thames Water a prime example, the railways. 

Do I want those that innovate, take business risks that generate jobs and growth to be taxed moderately YES, but do I want the vulnerable to be adequately supported YES.

I talk a lot about tax in my day job, I would say there is always a slight grudging but ultimate acceptance that the tax they pay is fair. (I will exempt IHT, the angst that causes).

Sunak vaunts the recent NI cuts. It will give me £200 perhaps. Which is fine until I popped to a garage recently with a damaged tyre. Well in fact it was 4 pot holed damaged tyres not 1, about 500 quid to sort. A trivial example but demonstrates that balance

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22 hours ago, Skamp said:

Just watching the Green Party's election broadcast.

 

Fuck me, they've out Laboured Labour in promising to spend money like it's going out of fashion without explaining where their magic money tree is planted.

I think if you sign up to be a member they let you hug their magic money tree. 

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On 08/06/2024 at 17:28, Gamblor said:

I think if you sign up to be a member they let you hug their magic money tree. 

Is that the same tree they'll hang apostates from if they get in power and enact Sharia Law?

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21 minutes ago, Andyben said:

No you can't have that.

It's one person making offensive remarks, not a whole party, it's not as if what he said is their official policy is it?

It's just ridiculous, especially because every party has some loons coming out with outrageous stuff, Yes if a cabinet member says it, it's serious but a councillor?  Come on, he's hardly elite level is he? 

Edited by BraddersTim
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7 minutes ago, BraddersTim said:

No you can't have that.

It's one person making offensive remarks, not a whole party, it's not as if what he said is their official policy is it?

It's just ridiculous, especially because every party has some loons coming out with outrageous stuff, Yes if a cabinet member says it, it's serious but a councillor?  Come on, he's hardly elite level is he? 

20 General Election Green Party candidates being  investigated for antisemitism after three more were banned from standing.

Majority are former Corbynites who left Labour - well those racists that haven't joined Galloway.

I pointed this out right at the start 

Edited by Andyben
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26 minutes ago, Andyben said:

20 General Election Green Party candidates being  investigated for antisemitism after three more were banned from standing.

Majority are former Corbynites who left Labour - well those racists that haven't joined Galloway.

I pointed this out right at the start 

Right at the start of what?  I'm not a Green voter so I'm not particularly inclined to defend them, but "antisemitism" could be anything right now.  Calling what Israel is doing "genocide" could be defined as antisemitic, but it's not.

As for Galloway, complete ****, I'm surprised that his routine still works after what he did in Bradford.  He's not interested in Gaza, he doesn't even turn up to debates on it in the HoC after telling his constituents that he would be their voice.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Is that it for the Leaders debates?  I hope so, because what a turgid shower of shit they were.

An increasingly desperate Sunak, shouting, hectoring and lying his way through, doing everything possible to scare the public  and Starmer, trying his best not to say anything, not a word, that would give Tory voters a reason not to vote for him.

David Cameron ushered in the worst possible generation of MP's when he caved in to the ERG.  I don't think that we'll ever get back to serious MP's debating issues properly.

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I'm late to the party on this one, so may repeat what's been said or just be waffling. Used to consider myself left wing until about 5 years ago. The left have moved so far left that being in the middle has made you right wing, or even far right these days. Social media is an absolute toilet for opinions. How you can be a far right, fascist bigot for saying women don't have cocks is beyond my tiny brain.

Neither of the leaders has any principles. Sunak is a gormless rich boy unaware of how he's found himself where he is. Starmer is a lying chancer who's terrified of saying anything in public that make his public opinion change by 1%. This is why Farage has stepped in.

My uncle was a miner and my old man a steelworker (no tool maker jokes please 🤣) so I grew up hating the tories. Maybe it's nostalgia, but Thatcher or Kinnock seemed like it would make a genuine difference. Voting this time seems irrelevant as there's not that extreme between the two parties any more. 

I voted for Corbyn in his first attempt, but 2nd time I thought he'd completely lost the plot. Was almost like he was trying his best to lose. If you didn't like Thatcher or Corbyn, at least they had values they stuck to unlike any of these current charlatans.

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It's the illusion of choice, there's very little to choose between the policies of the three main parties that will actually make a difference to people, it's just presented differently. What every party says it does and what it actually does are completely different things.

One party stays in till everyone hates them, then the other lot have a go till everyone hates them and so on and so forth. The British public hasn't voted for a party for a long time, just against the others.

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Apparently I am supposed to vote for the party I favour. Today is more about voting to prevent those I don't favour. 

I suspect like many I am endorsing a change of direction, but hardly a ringing one and a sense of potentially living to regret some of the political decisions thereafter my vote helped.

But enough about Brexit 

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If you want to see your taxes go up, illegal immigration numbers go through the roof, pay CGT when you sell your house, watch the women you love have their female identities eroded, watch the cost of net zero get massively out of hand with the resulting increase in energy bills, watch our national defence collapse, then go ahead and vote Labour.

 

Don't say you've not been warned.

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43 minutes ago, Skamp said:

If you want to see your taxes go up, illegal immigration numbers go through the roof, pay CGT when you sell your 😂house, watch the women you love have their female identities eroded, watch the cost of net zero get massively out of hand with the resulting increase in energy bills, watch our national defence collapse, then go ahead and vote Labour.

 

Don't say you've not been warned.

Yeah OK Rishi.. Dumbest post of the year by a fucking country mile.

😂😂😂

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8 hours ago, Skamp said:

If you want to see your taxes go up, illegal immigration numbers go through the roof, pay CGT when you sell your house, watch the women you love have their female identities eroded, watch the cost of net zero get massively out of hand with the resulting increase in energy bills, watch our national defence collapse, then go ahead and vote Labour.

 

Don't say you've not been warned.

Well the last figures showed 650,000 net migration in, so the Tories have not really practiced what they preached.

Tax as a % of GDP is at its highest level outside war time.

The Tories have frozen IHT thresholds so more Estates are becoming liable.

The Tories have brought in restrictions for buy to let landlords and now those with Air Bnbs

They hiked the corp tax rate by a third - as my clients are now seeing

They have flipped from a health and social care levy to reducing NI with no consideration of how that is going to be funded

They fucked up the trading discussions on the post Brexit position

They fed at the trough of PPE corruption

And 12 hour waits in A & E are commonplace.

I mean it's hardly been great advertisement for them to be re-elected 

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2 minutes ago, mkowl said:

They fucked up the trading discussions on the post Brexit position

Now we've gone for 7th to 4th in the world's biggest exporters since brexit so I'm not having that.

The rest yes. It was fucked up monumentally which is why I cancelled my membership 

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