Politics shit innit

[mkowl]

13 hours ago, BraddersTim said:

I'm  like many people Skamp,  Starmer doesn't thrill me and his austerity light offering, just following the Tories fiscal plans aren't going to make much of a difference.  My hope, and I think I'm going to have to wait for it, is that Labour are more bold in Govt than they have been in opposition, otherwise you will have nothing to complain about because effectively you'll be living under a centrist Conservative Govt in all but name.  You'd be much happier about it than I will!

As for the election, the Tories tore themselves apart and gifted it to Labour, who just had to be careful not to say too much or mess it up. Even I would have liked to have seen Labour have to work harder for it.  That said, I am enjoying the destruction of the Tory party that started with the ERG and has led to today.  It feels good to see some of the vilest characters, like my former MP Philip Davies get the kicking they deserve.

 

 

There is an irony in that I feel comfortable with Starmer and his team running the country. The voices you don't hear generally are the big lump of the centre ground. It is perhaps getting chipped away as social media enables populist views, whether that be Reform or the Greens, the Muslim vote in certain areas (getting less air time but just as significant). 

The vast majority still just want things to work, give zero fucks about political ideology. The reality is that in non urban areas from central England to the south West the opposition is the Lib Dems, the archetypal centre ground party

We have in theory a centre nudge left Govt but there is bleating from the loony left, who have never come up with a tangible, workable plan for one of the largest global economies.

The make up of the Cabinet is now as much council estate than Eton, which is a start at least.

[mkowl]

14 hours ago, Skamp said:

Well, as expected ,Labour win by an absolute landslide and will now govern for the foreseeable future.

Congratulations, and I mean that sincerely.  Starmer has turned a disaster for Labour into a disaster for the Tories in 5 years. Or has he? Was it the Tories that turned a triumph for them that made it a triumph for Labour?

I suppose we could debate this for the next 5 years but it is what it is.  The Torries will need to have their inquiry and try and find a new leader from the few that's left and Starmer will set about leading us into ...

 

Well, let's revisit where he leads us another day.

 

Drink your Champagne and enjoy the moment.

I generally fall into the oxymoron category of being a social conservative. A voter that flips between the parties that accord with the generality of my views. One that could not vote for the nutjobs of the right, in the same way I would reject the vision of Corbyn on the left.

Like a new Wednesday manager I will give Starmer a chance. He is dull and focuses on the substance not style, which frankly to try and fix the structural issues of the UK is what is needed. 

[BraddersTim]

2 hours ago, Andyben said:

So the new AG is a supporter of BDS and other anti-Israeli programs and represented Gerry Adams.

Wonderful 

I'm not even going to click the link.

We've literally had 14 years of nutjobs with dodgy links & incompetents in senior positions governing our lives, so it seems a bit rich for you to suddenly start digging dirt on the new encumbants.

[Andyben]

He's the head of matrix chambers, you remember them, Cherie's firm that profited immensely from her husbands  decision to sign up to ECHR etc and fought to keep terrorists and criminals in the UK that's the core reason for the problems with immigration today.

Britain is properly fucked now.

 

[Azuliblancos]

Morning. How’s everyone doing? 
🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹

Cry more, Andyben 😂😂😂😂

[Andyben]

Morning.

Not crying at all.

Utterly deserved and happy to see Sunak et al ousted.

[mkowl]

31 minutes ago, Azuliblancos said:

Morning. How’s everyone doing? 
🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹

Cry more, Andyben 😂😂😂😂

More funny is how many very left leaning folk are utterly gutted Starmer has got in. Cry wanking over their pics of Corbyn 

[Andyben]

I sincerely hope Labour do everything they said they were going to, plus all the other stuff we know they'll do but darent put in their manifesto (nationalise rail, rejoin EU etc).

It will be awesome.

[Skamp]

We’ll never, ever get the deal we previously had with the EU.

No rebate and a single currency will be red lines in Brussels. 
 

if we go for some EU lite just to gain access to the single market, we’ll be back to square one in terms of global trade deals and the ECHR

I get why some folk are miffed we’re out of the EU, but it will be far more costly, and potentially damagIng, trying to reverse it now. 

Edited July 6, 2024 by Skamp

[Andyben]

14 minutes ago, Skamp said:

We’ll never, ever get the deal we previously had with the EU.

No rebate and a single currency will be red lines in Brussels. 
 

if we go for some EU lite just to gain access to the single market, we’ll be back to square one in terms of global trade deals and the ECHR

I get why some folk are miffed we’re out of the EU, but it will be far more costly, and potentially damagIng, trying to reverse it now. 

Exactly...

[Southy_SWFC]

2 hours ago, Andyben said:

I sincerely hope Labour do everything they said they were going to, plus all the other stuff we know they'll do but darent put in their manifesto (nationalise rail, rejoin EU etc).

It will be awesome.

After traveling on trains in England last month, I honestly don't think there's anything they could do to make it worse than it is right now. 

[BraddersTim]

5 hours ago, Andyben said:

He's the head of matrix chambers, you remember them, Cherie's firm that profited immensely from her husbands  decision to sign up to ECHR etc and fought to keep terrorists and criminals in the UK that's the core reason for the problems with immigration today.

Britain is properly fucked now.

 

Yeah it's all down to Cherie Blair 😂

[BraddersTim]

3 hours ago, Andyben said:

I sincerely hope Labour do everything they said they were going to, plus all the other stuff we know they'll do but darent put in their manifesto (nationalise rail, rejoin EU etc).

It will be awesome.

Funny thing is, I hope they do that too.

Spoiler...they won't.

[mkowl]

15 hours ago, BraddersTim said:

Funny thing is, I hope they do that too.

Spoiler...they won't.

I genuinely ask the remainer type, do you actually want to re-join the political union of the EU ?

I throw in the caveat that if it is possible to get a free(ish) trade deal and freedom of movement, ok that will be in exchange for following certain EU rules but primarily at the business level, would you want to re-join the political union ?

 

[BraddersTim]

1 minute ago, mkowl said:

I genuinely ask the remainer type, do you actually want to re-join the political union of the EU ?

I throw in the caveat that if it is possible to get a free(ish) trade deal and freedom of movement, ok that will be in exchange for following certain EU rules but primarily at the business level, would you want to re-join the political union ?

 

Am I the "remainder type"😂

For now, I'd settle for a free (er) trade deal, FOM and a grown up relationship with the EU. 

I don't think we"ll rejoin in my lifetime. 

[mkowl]

32 minutes ago, BraddersTim said:

Am I the "remainder type"😂

For now, I'd settle for a free (er) trade deal, FOM and a grown up relationship with the EU. 

I don't think we"ll rejoin in my lifetime. 

As a leaver type I actually concur 

My point is if that can be achieved why would you want the political union ?

[Andyben]

48 minutes ago, BraddersTim said:

Am I the "remainder type"😂

For now, I'd settle for a free (er) trade deal, FOM and a grown up relationship with the EU. 

I don't think we"ll rejoin in my lifetime. 

I can't see FoM being in the table as its utterly incompatible with what all have said about controlling migration.

Unless of course, by  control he meant a return to the complete unfettered influx we had before.

[BraddersTim]

5 hours ago, Andyben said:

I can't see FoM being in the table as its utterly incompatible with what all have said about controlling migration.

Unless of course, by  control he meant a return to the complete unfettered influx we had before.

But that's the thing. Immigration is far higher now than it was under FOM. So "completely unfettered" is more applicable now than it was then.

[BraddersTim]

6 hours ago, mkowl said:

As a leaver type I actually concur 

My point is if that can be achieved why would you want the political union ?

It's a good point and tbf during the referendum I was hoping to hear convincing arguments about how the relationship with the EU would look & under a sensible government we could have negotiated better trade agreements etc. Then, Brexit might have worked.

But they didn't and it hasn't. 

Now it's up to Labour to do something more progressive.

[mkowl]

At this point can we reflect on thank fuck we aren't French 

[Skamp]

13 hours ago, mkowl said:

At this point can we reflect on thank fuck we aren't French 

I think that nearly every day anyway.

[mkowl]

I love the fact we now only have to wait minutes not years for conspiracy theories 

[Otto_Man]

Hillsborough law? Couldn't have called it anything else Starmer you absolute slag

[mkowl]

I think the likelihood of a full on sectarian civil war in the UK moves ever closer.

Certain areas of the country - no real need to guess which - appear to want self rule and use intimidation and violence to achieve that. 

The selective reporting of certain stories in the mainstream media, the hypocrisy of how an attack on a soldier is explained away but police excess violence is an outrage. 

 

[Andyben]

You're  not in the caliphate so you'll be OK.

 

[Andyben]

Has anyone ever asked these 'asylum seekers' why they're insistent on bringing in Sharia Law to the UK and turning Britain into colder versions of the shit holes they've just escaped from?

Not the sharpest tools in the box are they, unless they're not really seeking asylum 

[BraddersTim]

6 hours ago, Andyben said:

Has anyone ever asked these 'asylum seekers' why they're insistent on bringing in Sharia Law to the UK and turning Britain into colder versions of the shit holes they've just escaped from?

Not the sharpest tools in the box are they, unless they're not really seeking asylum 

😂😂😂

Have you been hacked by Nigel Farage? 

[Andyben]

...

[Andyben]

25 minutes ago, BraddersTim said:

😂😂😂

Have you been hacked by Nigel Farage? 

So can you answer the question?

 

[BraddersTim]

4 minutes ago, Andyben said:

So can you answer the question?

 

Ask a sensible one and I might.

[Andyben]

I have @BraddersTim

 

 

Edited July 26, 2024 by Andyben

[BraddersTim]

Not even remotely.

[Andyben]

You can't answer it can you.

 

[BraddersTim]

5 hours ago, Andyben said:

You can't answer it can you.

 

I can't answer a stupid question - Yes you're right 

Answer me this - How many people who came to the UK as asylum seekers from the places you describe, do you actually know?

*Know = personal or business relationship.

[Andyben]

I dont live in the UK.

Its not a stupid question, I simplified it but it is far from stupid.

"A refugee is someone who has been compelled to leave their country and cannot return because of a serious threat to their life, physical integrity or freedom as a result of persecution, armed conflict, violence or serious public disorder. It is a legal status that provides an individual with certain rights and protections. An asylum-seeker is someone who has or intends to apply to be recognized as a refugee, but their application has yet to be processed. Governments will usually assess asylum applications to determine if an individual’s circumstances make them a refugee. Where needed, for example, in the absence of a national asylum system, UNHCR may also help process applications."

Above is the UNHCR definition of refugee / asylum seeking people.

The critical point, which is the basis of international law and the human rights legislation is in bold and the keyword is compelled.

And I think this is something that we both all agree is fair and just.

But it is also the very point that is being manipulated by people seeking a new life for economic reasons  but do not wish to adhere to the normal laws surrounding migration, which I have had to do where I live, for example, and what the parents of close friends had to do to move to the  UK in the 60s/70s and indeed my own family had to do prior to that.

So when we have these criminal economic migrants (because they're breaking usual laws regarding migration as  their lives in their home countries do not suffer from the examples of valid refugee status as defined by the UNHCR) moving to Europe en mass and then once their asylum status has been incorrectly granted they freely return home for weddings, holidays etc, and they state that they wish to have sharia law enacted in Europe, do you think that the whole process is broken and there is an urgent need to stop the abuse of the system by these criminal economic migrants - who are predominantly young Muslim men - before it's too late.

Look at Germany, Ireland, France and Sweden and the terrible effect this criminal migration has had on these countries, let alone what's happening in the UK.

The problem is it will get far far worse over the next four years and the  only hope we have is a paradigm shift in continental European policy on the treatment of these criminals else we wake up one day in the very near future and we've reached and gone past a tipping point from which there'll be no return 

 

[BraddersTim]

@Andybenanswer my question - how many do you know?

[Andyben]

So taking all that into consideration, if a person has been compelled to leave their home due to one or more of the factors listed in the UNHCR definition, then why do they then state their wish to import that very system)which allegedly compelled them to leave their home) and enact it in the countries which have provided them a safe harbour?

[Andyben]

1 minute ago, BraddersTim said:

@Andybenanswer my question - how many do you know?

I did, now answer mine?

Edited July 26, 2024 by Andyben

[BraddersTim]

Just now, Andyben said:

I did.

No you did not - unless your answer is "none"

[Andyben]

1 minute ago, BraddersTim said:

No you did not - unless your answer is "none"

If I don't live in the  UK how can it be anything else?

[BraddersTim]

Just now, Andyben said:

If I don't live in the  UK how can it be anything else?

So you will admit to speaking from a position of ignorance? 

[Andyben]

How many do you know? 3, 5, 20, 100?

Would it be considered a a fair representation of the hundreds of thousands on a statistical basis?

So you can't judge my comments on the fact I don't know any and it is far from being a place of ignorance.

Enlighten me.

How many criminal economic migrants do you know.

Edited July 26, 2024 by Andyben

[BraddersTim]

4 minutes ago, Andyben said:

How many do you know? 3, 5, 20, 100?

Would it be considered a a fair representation of the hundreds of thousands on a statistical basis?

So you can't judge my comments on the fact I don't know any and it is far from being a place of ignorance.

Enlighten me.

How many criminal economic migrants do you know.

Ok I can answer this.

Personally...those who came as "illegal migrants"  probably 6-7

*There is no such thing as "illegal"

Professionally - easily over 100 directly and many many more indirectly.

We can continue this, but for your sake you probably should step away now.

*You won't - it's all about ego with you.

 

[Andyben]

2 minutes ago, BraddersTim said:

There is no such thing as "illegal"

I can guarantee you that there is.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/illegal-migration-bill

Edited July 26, 2024 by Andyben

[BraddersTim]

1 minute ago, Andyben said:

I can guarantee you that there is.

And that's your point?

[Andyben]

No my point was that you cant/won't answer my question.

And if you honestly think there's no such thing as illegal immigration then perhaps I understand why.

[BraddersTim]

4 minutes ago, Andyben said:

I can guarantee you that there is.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/illegal-migration-bill

There you go again...

People are never illegal.

You got exposed. Admit it. It's fine.

You didn't have a question - you had a prejudice, not based in real life experience. It was shown up, you did what you do, deflect by attacking another way. 

But facts:

Rwanda: gone

Detention Ship: going.

Suellas daft migration bill: will go.

At some point quite soon there will be a sensible approach between the UK and French and the boat situation will reduce drastically. Almost as if the whole situation was created to invoke a culture war.

 

 

 

[BraddersTim]

Off to watch telly now, I'm bored of you.

[Andyben]

20 minutes ago, BraddersTim said:

People are never illegal.

Outstanding.

The term for a person who is contravening the migration law is an illegal immigrant.

Just as the term for a person driving without an appropriate license is an illegal driver.

Enjoy watching TV.

Perhaps at some stage in the future you could answer the original question, without the need to make personal derogatory comments, but on past experience I won't hold my breath.

Let's just say it says far more about you than it does me.

[Andyben]

26 minutes ago, BraddersTim said:

You got exposed. Admit it. It's fine.

Could you explain this?

Exposed?