A New Group of Attention Seekers

[Andyben]

7 minutes ago, Jake said:

My counter to the what next question has always been, what if we stay as we are? Nobody ever answers that one either because it’s equally as difficult as what’s next. What does the future look like under Chansiri?

We have an exciting young management team.

We are signing top drawer young players - our front four consists of players from Monaco, Barcelona, PSG & Chelsea.

We finally have a defined path from the academy to the first team.

We are operating within a tight budget with no fear of breaching financial regulations.

We only owe cash to our owner and not MacQuarie Bank, MSD Fund or any other vulture which saddles club with high interest rates and takes security over all income _ TV, Ticket Sales, player contracts etc.

We're cutting our cloth accordingly across the whole football club and have a sustainability we haven't had since the Howard Wilkinson days.

Two / Three more seasons with this organic growth and development will see us in a superb position as clubs around us fall foul to the increasingly tight financial regulations.

Isn't that what we want - a well run club with stability?

 

[Tewksbury]

9 minutes ago, Jake said:

Like others have, you’ve highlighted just one point I’ve made, in order to discredit it, then moved the conversation to a whole different question for me to answer, ignoring every other point, aside from the one highlighted.

I’m speaking personally giving my opinion, against a handful of strong willed accounts. We were talking about the number of people I believe take the group seriously, I gave a reasoned answer and the response to what said in it’s entirety was that the below is a sweeping statement;

“the majority I speak to (this site aside) don’t approve of Chansiri’s running of the club”

It isn’t a sweeping statement it’s my personal experience. I’ve no need to lie about that, I fully accept there are people out there that don’t feel the same as me. 

The rest of your post is a valid question which is asked on repeat by people who don’t approve of the group. 

It can be shortened to what’s next? The fact of the matter is nobody ever truly knows that when there’s a change of ownership at a club. It could be a worse (I’d argue not much) but it could be a whole lot better. Pretty much every change ever made in anything, carries a risk. 

Sell to who? How does anyone expect that question answered, I didn’t know of Chansiri’s existence before he bought the club. The club itself has confirmed there have been interested parties, the stumbling block seemingly is the over exaggerated value placed on the club by DC. 

The first step and the aim of the group is for Chansiri to put the club up for sale to potential new buyers at a reasonable sale value. We’ve gone over our reasoning for wanting him to leave. People will naturally not pick at some of those reasons and try to discredit them but we feel, on the whole, that his running of the club is sadly lacking in competence and any sort of vision for the future. 

The reason for protest is that we feel he won’t move on whilst-ever there is no pressure. We’ve tried communication as have others and little changes. That’s it simplified.

As a by product of protesting for sale, we hope he at very least realises supporters concerns should not be ignored and that he personally needs to change tact.

My counter to the what next question has always been, what if we stay as we are? Nobody ever answers that one either because it’s equally as difficult as what’s next. What does the future look like under Chansiri?

The stumbling block is reasonable value.

His overexaggerated price is because the money down as loans exists as an asset somewhere, probably in one of his other businesses. Writing that off takes the equivalent from the other business, which could then potentially go under.

Why the fuck would he give the club away at a massive loss just because you think someone else could do better?

The club is in no danger, if it was it would have happened 2 years ago. Even on relegation, the odds, based on previous actions, would indicate another promotion push. There is nothing to suggest that funding is in danger, as he said himself, funding and cashflow are 2 separate things.

I think you need to delve a bit deeper into other Championship and League One clubs, we are nowhere near the bottom in terms of ownership.

And as for this constant "Het a DOF/CEO, half the clubs with decent ownership are struggling because the DOF/CEO has fucked up. Look at why Beale was put in at Sunderland.

[Tylluan]

9 hours ago, Jake said:

I see we’ve started with the aggressive tone and sly digs.

No mate. I was just calling you out on you writing something without looking into it. A bit like @Andyben still waiting for you to post a link to a balanced debate on Owlstalk 

 

9 hours ago, Jake said:

Would you kindly advise the details of how me or you (as unaffiliated fans) can request to join the panel? I can’t see it publicised anywhere and have looked previously. Also, do you have any idea why fans forums stopped 5 years ago?

The club publish the time of the next meeting on the official website and have to give 3 weeks notice. The next one will probably be at the end of the season. How to get involved is posted on there but usually it's an email into the club, but individual invites are pulled out of a hat, so to speak. 

If you're serious then the best way is actually to formalise a membership for 1867. That way you'll also know the number of people you've solidly got behind you. Join the FSA, clubs can have multiple fan group affiliation, and you're guaranteed a place at the table. One thing though. The Trust went in all guns blazing and the rest of the supporters groups kicked them out. 

On why the general forums ended. Simple answer is they became too hard to control from a security and safety aspect. On one occasion a couple of known pigs managed to get and stir the pot. It got a bit fractious when they got spotted. After the last one several 'fans' surrounded Chansiri's car and there was some pushing and shoving involved as he tried to get in. At that point he'd had enough of being shouted at and jostled.  They also became boring and repetitive with the same morons asking the same questions and some pockets of fans turned on themselves. The last but one closed around 2am and the last one had a cut off of midnight. I went to the last two and on both occasions the same player recruitment question was asked about 20 times. This wasn't the club not giving reasonable answers. This was all the idiots having their 5 mins of fame amongst their mates standing up and pointing fingers at the top table. Then going on twitter to tell the world that "they'd told that Chansiri to spend more money" 

 

One more piece of homework. Google Katrien Meire's involvement in the club. You might find it wasn't Chansiri that stuck the sale in the wrong accounting year. 

[Tylluan]

10 hours ago, Jake said:

 

 

10 hours ago, Jake said:

 

Edited March 15 by Tylluan
Double post

[Bellsview]

I’m not convinced as much as a third despise Chansiri either. I think a 10-80-10 split is more like it, but I’ve nothing concrete to base it on.

I’ll try and see this from an 1867 Group perspective for the next few lines of this post.

First thing, members of the group need to push personal feelings to one side, I know through my Dave Allen protesting time that forcing personal opinions on supporters ain’t the best approach.

But what is clear is that there’s strong feelings within the group that Chansiri isn’t the man for the club, hence setting it up in the first place. So what’s the best way to go about things in an attempt to get him to relinquish the club? Obvious one, which is what has happened, is to protest. The first protest, which was intended to be a disruptive one, didn’t work and with the club being in the predicament it is in, there’s a balancing act between protests having the desired effect and impacting negatively on the team on the pitch - which nobody wants. 

So the group have reflected on this and have now decided to continue to protest, but in a way where protests stop when the match kicks off. Clearly it has had some impact in terms of supporters holding up flyers to show their dissatisfaction, but in terms of achieving anything, that’s negligible at best.

So what next - well if it was me on that group I’d be stopping with the protests and suggesting that the group focused wholly on finding a potential investor/buyer. It’s the only credible way forward in tackling Chansiri head on and his custodianship of the club. If/when this investor/buyer is found, then perhaps release a statement that this is the case and that the group wishes to extend an olive branch to DC and help broker/support constructive dialogue and communications with said potential investor/buyer and DC in an attempt to find a new owner for the club (that doesn’t mean be involved in discussions, it’s not what a supporters group is about, however, there’s nothing wrong with the group stating that if a new owner is found, this is what we would like to see happen).

When the above stage is reached (if it ever is) then the 1867 Group is going to face little resistance or ridicule from supporters over what they are working for and hoping to help achieve - and more importantly they will have increased their credibility.

This has to be the only logical and realistic way forward. Anything else is just antagonising DC and divisive, particularly of the supporter base - and it achieves nothing.

I know what it’s like to protest against the club owners. It takes a lot out of you, it frustrates you, it demoralises you and it ends up with you alienating and pissing off fellow supporters - you don’t ‘win’ even if you succeed in what you set out to achieve, because those battle scars from the fight still remain. So instead of pushing against the clubs regime, as I did, try to do something to engage with them, in a constructive manner - but before you’re able to do that you must have something that you can bring to the table - and it seems to me that we’re still a long way off that yet.

 

[Jake]

2 minutes ago, Andyben said:

We have an exciting young management team.

We are signing top drawer young players - our front four consists of players from Monaco, Barcelona, PSG & Chelsea.

We finally have a defined path from the academy to the first team.

We are operating within a tight budget with no fear of breaching financial regulations.

We only owe cash to our owner and not MacQuarie Bank, MSD Fund or any other vulture which saddles club with high interest rates and takes security over all income _ TV, Ticket Sales, player contracts etc.

We're cutting our cloth accordingly across the whole football club and have a sustainability we haven't had since the Howard Wilkinson days.

Two / Three more seasons with this organic growth and development will see us in a superb position as clubs around us fall foul to the increasingly tight financial regulations.

Isn't that what we want - a well run club with stability?

 

I agree that the management team is doing an excellent job. It’s my view that we now have 9 cup finals to have any chance of keeping them in place. Their contact situation should be addressed as a priority. 

I agree that Gassama and Musaba look like they could develop into really good players. We need to either see benefit from this long term on the field, or generate handsome fees, time will tell. 

The amount of money owed to DC, whilst frightening is better than bank loans. However, are his finances and cash flow an issue? He seemingly admitted they are, if they aren’t, why destabilise the club like he did? Clarity needed. 
 

What are your thoughts on the amount of stadium rent we’re currently paying? 
 

Are we going to address the aging facilities and infrastructure which is inevitably going to cost millions down the road? 
 

We’re a relegation away from derailing any very recent positives, though I’d add one, the chairman is at least seemingly not blowing things up himself of late. I fear he’s always likely to do that which is worrying. 
 

Whilst the losses are improved, is it sustainable in line with his current personal financial position? 
 

I’m really not sure we have a well run club. 

[Reesh]

3 minutes ago, Jake said:

I agree that the management team is doing an excellent job. It’s my view that we now have 9 cup finals to have any chance of keeping them in place. Their contact situation should be addressed as a priority. 

I agree that Gassama and Musaba look like they could develop into really good players. We need to either see benefit from this long term on the field, or generate handsome fees, time will tell. 

The amount of money owed to DC, whilst frightening is better than bank loans. However, are his finances and cash flow an issue? He seemingly admitted they are, if they aren’t, why destabilise the club like he did? Clarity needed. 
 

What are your thoughts on the amount of stadium rent we’re currently paying? 
 

Are we going to address the aging facilities and infrastructure which is inevitably going to cost millions down the road? 
 

We’re a relegation away from derailing any very recent positives, though I’d add one, the chairman is at least seemingly not blowing things up himself of late. I fear he’s always likely to do that which is worrying. 
 

Whilst the losses are improved, is it sustainable in line with his current personal financial position? 
 

I’m really not sure we have a well run club. 

1) They have 3 years left.

2) It's a paper transaction ffs, stick to construction. 

3) The ageing facilties that Chansiri has tried to upgrade, hardly his fault the stadium is built next to the river and had 20 years neglect prior to his taking over.

Edited March 15 by Reesh

[Jake]

2 minutes ago, Reesh said:

1) They have 3 years left.

2) It's a paper transaction ffs, stick to construction. 

3) The ageing facilties that Chansiri has tried to upgrade, hardly his fault the stadium is built next to the river and had 20 years neglect prior to his taking over.

1) My apologies if I’m wrong on that, I haven’t seen that publicised anywhere. My bad. 

2) Me or Chansiri? 

3) The facilities have now had a further 9 years of neglect, scoreboard and pitch aside and desperately need a long term maintenance and improvement plan. He would have known this when he bought the club. You don’t buy a house, live in it for 9 years, then blame the previous owner if the roof caves in. You can’t reactively address these things as it undoubtedly costs millions more than it would if he is to stick around. The only paint brush I’ve seen during Chansiri’s reign is in the hands of Luke Horton (I do like his work). 

[Andyben]

21 minutes ago, Jake said:

I agree that the management team is doing an excellent job. It’s my view that we now have 9 cup finals to have any chance of keeping them in place. Their contact situation should be addressed as a priority. WHY? ROHL & HIS TEAM ARE ON A LONG TERM CONTRACT

I agree that Gassama and Musaba look like they could develop into really good players. We need to either see benefit from this long term on the field, or generate handsome fees, time will tell. 

The amount of money owed to DC, whilst frightening is better than bank loans. However, are his finances and cash flow an issue? He seemingly admitted they are, if they aren’t, why destabilise the club like he did? Clarity needed. 

CASHFLOW WAS HIS PROBLEM. IT MEANT A DELAY IN HIM BEING ABLE TO PAY MORE CASH TO THE CLUB. AS SAID EARLIER - THIS WAS CRITICAL DURING THE LOCKDOWN PERIOD WHEN THE THAI CENTRAL BANK INVOKED EXCHANGE CONTROL CONDITIONS TO STOP THE OUTFLOW OF CAPITAL (CASH) FROM THE COUNTRY.

What are your thoughts on the amount of stadium rent we’re currently paying? 

WE'RE NOT PAYING ANYTHING - NO CASH TRANSACTION. ITS NETTED OFF AGAINST THE AMOUNT 'OWED' FOR THE GROUND SALE/PURCHASE, WHICH THEN AGAIN IS ITSELF USED AGAINST THE SHAREHOLDERS LOAN ACCOUNT - LIKE WHEN DC ADDS FUNDS EACH QUARTER/MONTH
 

Are we going to address the aging facilities and infrastructure which is inevitably going to cost millions down the road? 

THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN SECONDARY TO THE TEAM. HE HAS PAID MILLIONS IN THE PAST FOR THE PITCH AND TRAINING GROUND REDEVELOPMENT - BUT IN THE ABSENCE OF A BOTTOMLESS POT OF CASH - I'D RATHER HE SPENT IT ON THE TEAM/MANAGEMENT
 

We’re a relegation away from derailing any very recent positives, though I’d add one, the chairman is at least seemingly not blowing things up himself of late. I fear he’s always likely to do that which is worrying. 

NO WE'RE NOT. ROHL IS ON A LONG CONTRACT, NOT ANNUAL LIKE MOORE AND OTHERS HAVE BEEN AND FROM DAY ONE THE PLAN INCLUDED A RELEGATION. THE SECOND PART ACTUALLY FLIES ON THE FACE OF WHAT'S HAPPENED OVER THE PAST THREE SEASONS SINCE RELEGATION. 
 

Whilst the losses are improved, is it sustainable in line with his current personal financial position? 

WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
 

I’m really not sure we have a well run club. 

SHAME BECAUSE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN OVER 30 YEARS WE ACTUALLY DO - would you like to expand on what part of the club isn't being well run?

 

Edited March 15 by Andyben

[mkowl]

1 hour ago, Reesh said:

Fuck off

Need a man hug 

[mkowl]

1 hour ago, Tewksbury said:

I'd say it would be more 10-70-20.

The main issue is that the current narrative is that the funding from Chansiri isn't there and that we're 2 minutes to Reading, pushing a lot more into the first category who don't really belong there.

 

On another note, inserting Wednesday into Reading's very real issues at every opportunity is bang out of order.

Your Kinnock 80s throwback LARPing saviour complex munchausens fantasy isn't helping them in the slightest.

Tbf I am the "saviour" who decided 2/3rds through it ain't ever going to work. The point being WTID did at least offer an alternative to the Status Quo - whereas 1867 are going down down the route of leaving it to someone else to pick up the shitty stick

[mkowl]

37 minutes ago, Jake said:

I agree that the management team is doing an excellent job. It’s my view that we now have 9 cup finals to have any chance of keeping them in place. Their contact situation should be addressed as a priority. 

I agree that Gassama and Musaba look like they could develop into really good players. We need to either see benefit from this long term on the field, or generate handsome fees, time will tell. 

The amount of money owed to DC, whilst frightening is better than bank loans. However, are his finances and cash flow an issue? He seemingly admitted they are, if they aren’t, why destabilise the club like he did? Clarity needed. 
 

What are your thoughts on the amount of stadium rent we’re currently paying? 
 

Are we going to address the aging facilities and infrastructure which is inevitably going to cost millions down the road? 
 

We’re a relegation away from derailing any very recent positives, though I’d add one, the chairman is at least seemingly not blowing things up himself of late. I fear he’s always likely to do that which is worrying. 
 

Whilst the losses are improved, is it sustainable in line with his current personal financial position? 
 

I’m really not sure we have a well run club. 

I mean that is where Stalkconomics come into play, the whole debate on there on the stadium sale, rent etc is so uninformed its scary and then it permeates to social media. 

The point about the stadium sale is it only becomes an issue IF Chansiri sells the football club but decides to be the landlord. 

The "rent" we pay (on paper) was reverse engineered. The answer for the stadium value was £60m, the next stage was what rent is needed and what is the length of the lease to get to £60m. It was a fudge 

AND there is every chance that if Chansiri did retain the stadium there would be a re-negotiation of the lease terms to facilitiate the football club sale. Its not set in stone, you can rip up the lease and start again of all the parties agreed.

I have shown on here that as an accountant I could deal with all the transactions relating to the stadium each year without a single penny ever moving. Debits / credits / intercompany account. But people do not want to understand this because it cuts off one of the arguments. 

They state he is withdrawing funds from the Club but fail to grasp he is probably pumping £ms in via Sheffield 3. Hopefully the new accountants will improve the disclosure on those accounts 

The one legal charge (well a rolling one) is apparently a legacy from the Mandaric era - but apparently there is now loans of £24m  

 

[Hirstys 12th Pint]

2 hours ago, Chelters said:

Have you considered the likely confirmation bias in what you believe you are experiencing? Works both ways of course but it feels like there’s a bit creeping in there.

As an example zoom in on a picture of the Kop on Friday night and just look, really look, at how many are holding up the leaflets. It’s no more than about 25%, if that.

And how many of those were under 14 ?

[mkowl]

Just now, Hirstys 12th Pint said:

And how many of those were under 14 ?

Its not t'Lane where 80% of season ticket holders are under 16 and the other 20% above 65

[owl4ever1867]

1 hour ago, Andyben said:

We have an exciting young management team.

We are signing top drawer young players - our front four consists of players from Monaco, Barcelona, PSG & Chelsea.

We finally have a defined path from the academy to the first team.

We are operating within a tight budget with no fear of breaching financial regulations.

We only owe cash to our owner and not MacQuarie Bank, MSD Fund or any other vulture which saddles club with high interest rates and takes security over all income _ TV, Ticket Sales, player contracts etc.

We're cutting our cloth accordingly across the whole football club and have a sustainability we haven't had since the Howard Wilkinson days.

Two / Three more seasons with this organic growth and development will see us in a superb position as clubs around us fall foul to the increasingly tight financial regulations.

Isn't that what we want - a well run club with stability?

 

Nah AB, we want DC to spend millions trying to get us to the PL then when it doesn't work we can mean that he's wasted money yet again.

I fail to see what these at 1867 are trying to achieve.

Edited March 15 by owl4ever1867

[Andyben]

1 hour ago, Jake said:

Are we going to address the aging facilities and infrastructure which is inevitably going to cost millions down the road? 
 

Forest are redeveloping the Peter Taylor Stand & increasing its capacity to 10,000. They're also refreshing the other three sides and installing  more Exec Boxes, better changing rooms, TV / Media suite etc .

The ground will then hold 35,000 which I would argue is all we need for the foreseeable future.

If we look at re-doing the Lepp as a direct comparative to Forest then we'll be in a similar position.

What's the cost of doing this at the City Ground?

£100m.

 

[Andyben]

5 minutes ago, Andyben said:

Forest are redeveloping the Peter Taylor Stand & increasing its capacity to 10,000. They're also refreshing the other three sides and installing  more Exec Boxes, better changing rooms, TV / Media suite etc .

The ground will then hold 35,000 which I would argue is all we need for the foreseeable future.

If we look at re-doing the Lepp as a direct comparative to Forest then we'll be in a similar position.

What's the cost of doing this at the City Ground?

£100m.

 

So would you and any other Nev be happy instead to build a brand new stadium, with academy, training ground etc on a suitable site in the wider Sheffield area and sell Hillsborough for housing instead?

I's roughly £2.7m per 1,000 seats to build a new stadium (depending on location) add another £15/20m for the academy/ training ground and we're at £125m. 

We could possibly recoup £35m/£40m selling Hillsborough, the surrounding area and training ground (subject to the incompetents in the council approving it) so a brilliant new 40,000 stadium situated in Westfield/Halfway (great transport links) and all other facilities for a net spend of JUST £80-85m.

Seem reasonable?

We could speak with AC Milan and license they medical/performance centre at Milanello and offer it to the NCS and Premier League clubs as another income stream (not that this was a plan i've got for the future ownership...) 

[Tylluan]

Forest are also costing a new stadium on the now abandoned HS2 hub at Toton as they're in dispute with the council over ground rent. 

They're budgeting £150m as they'd be picking up the site for about ten bob.

Edited March 15 by Tylluan

[Jake]

3 minutes ago, Andyben said:

So would you and any other Nev be happy instead to build a brand new stadium, with academy, training ground etc on a suitable site in the wider Sheffield area and sell Hillsborough for housing instead?

I's roughly £2.7m per 1,000 seats to build a new stadium (depending on location) add another £15/20m for the academy/ training ground and we're at £125m. 

We could possibly recoup £35m/£40m selling Hillsborough, the surrounding area and training ground (subject to the incompetents in the council approving it) so a brilliant new 40,000 stadium situated in Westfield/Halfway (great transport links) and all other facilities for a net spend of JUST £80-85m.

Seem reasonable?

We could speak with AC Milan and license they medical/performance centre at Milanello and offer it to the NCS and Premier League clubs as another income stream (not that this was a plan i've got for the future ownership...) 

Now you’re just being silly, I’m talking preventative maintenance and general upkeep. 

[Andyben]

3 minutes ago, Jake said:

Now you’re just being silly, I’m talking preventative maintenance and general upkeep. 

No, it's not silly, its exactly what's needed - anything else is just a waste at this point.

Just to remind you - you said "Are we going to address the aging facilities and infrastructure which is inevitably going to cost millions down the road?"

I'm simply pointing out just how many millions is needed to do a job properly

Edited March 15 by Andyben

[Jake]

1 minute ago, Andyben said:

No, it's not silly, its exactly what's needed - anything else is just a waste at this point.

So the current plan is to let it rot and see what happens? That plan was ok in the early stages but it’s catching us up. 

[Reesh]

1 hour ago, Jake said:

1) My apologies if I’m wrong on that, I haven’t seen that publicised anywhere. My bad. 

2) Me or Chansiri? 

3) The facilities have now had a further 9 years of neglect, scoreboard and pitch aside and desperately need a long term maintenance and improvement plan. He would have known this when he bought the club. You don’t buy a house, live in it for 9 years, then blame the previous owner if the roof caves in. You can’t reactively address these things as it undoubtedly costs millions more than it would if he is to stick around. The only paint brush I’ve seen during Chansiri’s reign is in the hands of Luke Horton (I do like his work). 

3) conveniently ignoring the work done at the training ground.

[Tylluan]

5 minutes ago, Jake said:

So the current plan is to let it rot and see what happens? That plan was ok in the early stages but it’s catching us up. 

How do you know that's the plan? 

A look at the accounts over the last ten years will show you how much has been spent on the infrastructure in comparison to the playing staff. 

[Teddy Nickelarse]

4 hours ago, Chelters said:

I’d agree with that. I would say a fair few of us on here are in the middle third but on X etc painted as being in the final third.

Everything outside looks dark when you’re inside with all the lights on. 

 

3 hours ago, mkowl said:

X is like that on every topic to be honest. 

Like I have suggested to Jake, he will learn a lot more on here than elsewhere. I would request that posters on here don't resort to insults or low blows, give him the respect to offer his view and argue back. 

I know what it's like when you raise your head above said parapet. 

And we rightly slate Stalk for such behaviour. 

👍

[Tylluan]

Probably the only time I'm going to agree with @Jake but 1867 don't have to find a buyer to be legit. In all honesty they probably don't have the contacts or wherewithal to start looking. But, I'll venture some on here do. 

What 1867 need to do is stop throwing generalisations out as facts. If you're going after Chansiri over the ground sale then do the proper due diligence. A good start would be to properly read and understand @mkowl post cos that lad knows what he's talking about. The other 6 or 7 money men on this site will also back that up. Understand why it's not the mess others, less qualified, portray it to be but if you're still unhappy then use the facts to establish the cause.

1867 need to stop comparing us to other clubs. Every club's ownership model and financial running is unique to them. We're not Birmingham, Luton, Swansea, and whoever else. 

Complaints over ground improvements need to be verified and ratified by going over the accounts rather than just spouting DC has spent fuck all or not enough and nothing has changed. @Andyben didn't pluck those costings out of thin air. They're all over Forest's application plan. Then if you still think DC should be footing a £100m bill then state why, factually, but also state that this might come at the expense of a reduced player budget or increased ticket prices so people can make their own mind up.

Like the majority on here have already said. If you want to make your collective voice have substance then you have to legitimise your narrative to increase the longevity. Just shouting Chansiri isn't fit for purpose and 'get out' might appeal to some now. But if we're sat near the top 6 this time next season and nothing has changed from Chansiri's side then will you still be handing flyers out? 

[Teddy Nickelarse]

2 hours ago, Andyben said:

We have an exciting young management team.

We are signing top drawer young players - our front four consists of players from Monaco, Barcelona, PSG & Chelsea.

We finally have a defined path from the academy to the first team.

We are operating within a tight budget with no fear of breaching financial regulations.

We only owe cash to our owner and not MacQuarie Bank, MSD Fund or any other vulture which saddles club with high interest rates and takes security over all income _ TV, Ticket Sales, player contracts etc.

We're cutting our cloth accordingly across the whole football club and have a sustainability we haven't had since the Howard Wilkinson days.

Two / Three more seasons with this organic growth and development will see us in a superb position as clubs around us fall foul to the increasingly tight financial regulations.

Isn't that what we want - a well run club with stability?

 

Yes.  I think that there are tangible signs pointing to a better future. 

[Andyben]

5 minutes ago, Teddy Nickelarse said:

Yes.  I think that there are tangible signs pointing to a better future. 

More that that - it shows DC has learned from his mistakes and is putting financial stability but still with material growth at fore front of his decisions.

Something that the Nevs had previously moaned about

Edited March 15 by Andyben

[Andyben]

2 hours ago, mkowl said:

Its not t'Lane where 80% of season ticket holders are under 16 and the other 20% above 65

Saying that, we should have a competition to see who was the oldest on here that could get away with a 'kids for a quid' ticket back in the day.

I was 20 - had young uns go to ticket office to buy them

[Teddy Nickelarse]

10 minutes ago, Andyben said:

More that that - it shows DC has learned from his mistakes and is putting financial stability but still with material growth at fore front of his decisions.

Something that the Nevs had previously moaned about

No argument there from me. Apologies for understating my optimusm 😀

[Hirstys 12th Pint]

Do you know what - this has been a cracking thread. 

Thanks to @Jake and @bazapeps for been part of it, as well as the usual excellent OO contributors and some good new ones.

[Tylluan]

2 hours ago, Andyben said:

Saying that, we should have a competition to see who was the oldest on here that could get away with a 'kids for a quid' ticket back in the day.

I was 20 - had young uns go to ticket office to buy them

Knew a lad in his 20s who regularly used to get in on a kids season ticket. Only stood around 5'7" 5'8" mind

[Otto_Man]

15 hours ago, Jake said:

That’s an impossible task I’m afraid. I can only really go X polls (generally 80-90% Chansiri out depending on latest on field results) but it isn’t much of a demographic.

The visuals of the leaflet protests.

The uptake I’ve witnessed first hand (generally really positive with some abhorrent abuse by a very small minority vs Leeds - zero against Birmingham)

Discussions with fellow fans in the ground/pubs generally in favour, always respectful and understanding.

The comments on Owlstalk (mostly in favour)

Owlsonline (hardly anyone in favour)

TWS - Banned for posting a link to the group (apparently strongly not in favour but also associated officially with the club).

Podcasts and football heaven (mixed but again generally reasoned).

Theres certainly enough people out there whose voice should be heard, in my honest opinion. 

 

 

 

Social media polls are about as legitimate as the current Russian presidential elections. Aside from the fact any Tom, Dick or piggy can vote, you get how Twitter works don't you? These people have had to follow you so clearly they like what you have to say. 

On the flyers, believe I'm right in saying you had 15k printed? If so, even if you gave every single one out and every single person you gave one to held it up (and I don't believe that happened for a second) that would still only be 50% of the attendees at the Leeds game. So no basis for saying it's any sort of a majority, in fact, quite the opposite...

[Andyben]

52 minutes ago, Tylluan said:

Knew a lad in his 20s who regularly used to get in on a kids season ticket. Only stood around 5'7" 5'8" mind

Did he DJ in Niche?

[Jake]

5 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

Social media polls are about as legitimate as the current Russian presidential elections. Aside from the fact any Tom, Dick or piggy can vote, you get how Twitter works don't you? These people have had to follow you so clearly they like what you have to say. 

On the flyers, believe I'm right in saying you had 15k printed? If so, even if you gave every single one out and every single person you gave one to held it up (and I don't believe that happened for a second) that would still only be 50% of the attendees at the Leeds game. So no basis for saying it's any sort of a majority, in fact, quite the opposite...

In fairness I did clearly state X polls aren’t much of a demographic. The people voting don’t have to follow you however. Every tweet with the Wednesday hashtag is seen by supporters of all opinions. Would you not suggest United fans are more likely to vote for Chansiri to remain, given the accusations on here are that people who want Chansiri out are quote, “crayon munchers/window lickers”. That was my attempt at humour on a serious debate. 
 

I quite openly stated it’s near on impossible to gauge/confirm support. It is however, unquestionable that there is a very large number of dissatisfied Wednesdayites who believe a change in ownership is required. I don’t think any amount of shouting down will work from either side, hence why I ventured into the lions den for a discussion. 

[HoylandOwl]

The people on the original fans forums were asked to go, as they were chosen from a wide range of supporters groups/websites. As I was one of the original group of around 30/40 people that was invited. Over time, more people were invited, people (including me) were given the chance to bring someone along, and most did. 

I had a very frank conversation with DC about the ticket pricing when he brought in about 8 categories IIRC, and the media had a field day with it. He spoke about 'flexibility' in pricing, and it not meaning that the top whack of £52 IIRC would unlikely be used, but I said if you put it out there, then the media will jump on it and say that's what we are going to charge. To be fair to DC we never did use that price bracket, but it was a stick that was used very frequently to beat him with. 

Yet despite me covering things on here, reps from OT putting things out on there, and various other places, they always seemingly decended into farce, as while there was a smattering of new questions there was always old ground being covered. Then there were questions about tactics, player selection, and even players numbers.. So, what was the point? 

The current advisory groups as Ty alluded to earlier, are ones which are mandated on clubs now. DC and the club brought them into the club a LONG TIME before they were mandatory. But it didn't really help. So it's easy to see now why people see them as just a tick box exercise. The club tried to make them more informative, give the fans more of a voice, but when the effectiveness of them was diluted, by stupid, and very often repeated questions by newcomers. That's not DC's fault. 

[Tewksbury]

8 minutes ago, Jake said:

In fairness I did clearly state X polls aren’t much of a demographic. The people voting don’t have to follow you however. Every tweet with the Wednesday hashtag is seen by supporters of all opinions. Would you not suggest United fans are more likely to vote for Chansiri to remain, given the accusations on here are that people who want Chansiri out are quote, “crayon munchers/window lickers”. That was my attempt at humour on a serious debate. 
 

I quite openly stated it’s near on impossible to gauge/confirm support. It is however, unquestionable that there is a very large number of dissatisfied Wednesdayites who believe a change in ownership is required. I don’t think any amount of shouting down will work from either side, hence why I ventured into the lions den for a discussion. 

Is the change required or preferred?

In/out polls do very little when it's not a binary question.

Have you tried one with a question such as minimum for Chansiri to leave among those Chansiri outers?

With a scale of options such as admin, phoenix club, any new owner, ashley type owner, investment fund, international multiclub owner, nation state?

You'd get a much more accurate view on where people stand as I'd say most will take Chansiri out if it's a multiclub or above but will be much more wary of the other options.

[Otto_Man]

23 minutes ago, Jake said:

In fairness I did clearly state X polls aren’t much of a demographic. The people voting don’t have to follow you however. Every tweet with the Wednesday hashtag is seen by supporters of all opinions. Would you not suggest United fans are more likely to vote for Chansiri to remain, given the accusations on here are that people who want Chansiri out are quote, “crayon munchers/window lickers”. That was my attempt at humour on a serious debate. 
 

I quite openly stated it’s near on impossible to gauge/confirm support. It is however, unquestionable that there is a very large number of dissatisfied Wednesdayites who believe a change in ownership is required. I don’t think any amount of shouting down will work from either side, hence why I ventured into the lions den for a discussion. 

Social media algorithms tend to mean you only see the content you engage with unless you go looking, Wednesday hashtag or not.

Interesting that you immediately presume piggies will vote for DC to remain, kind of renders the poll meaningless as you seem to have decided the outcome already. I think piggies will vote for whatever causes the most grief, if they vote for DC to stay in enough numbers it rather blunts your arguments and the "status quo" remains.

I also don't think you can state "very large numbers" with any certainty, we've already established it was less than half those there at the last game and whilst I'm sure you'll tell me not everyone that supports your cause was at the game, they ain't gonna change shit sat at home.

[Jake]

22 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

Social media algorithms tend to mean you only see the content you engage with unless you go looking, Wednesday hashtag or not.

Interesting that you immediately presume piggies will vote for DC to remain, kind of renders the poll meaningless as you seem to have decided the outcome already. I think piggies will vote for whatever causes the most grief, if they vote for DC to stay in enough numbers it rather blunts your arguments and the "status quo" remains.

I also don't think you can state "very large numbers" with any certainty, we've already established it was less than half those there at the last game and whilst I'm sure you'll tell me not everyone that supports your cause was at the game, they ain't gonna change shit sat at home.

It was me that actually doubted the legitimacy of an X poll. I was simply trying to state the available ways of attempting to gauge people’s views. 

Flip the question, what makes you think that it’s a minority who want DC out? Impossible question to accurately answer. 

I’m not the type to think it isn’t ok to have a differing opinion, quite the opposite. One of the first times I aired my views publicly I constantly objected to fans being called fickle in regard to protest, I don’t believe criticising fellow fans is necessary or productive. We do all want the same thing.

I’m glad this debate has remained civil, I’ve benefitted from it in that I may not be quite as militant as I maybe have been in the past. This is genuinely the only format where I have heard the counter argument, without the ridiculousness of X. I don’t agree that Chansiri is the right man for the club but have conceded I may not have been correct in some areas.  

Going to try and refrain tonight as I’m off out on the source and late night Jake, is a bit more Reesh, than Hirsty’s 12th pint 😊
 

[Andyben]

1 hour ago, HoylandOwl said:

The people on the original fans forums were asked to go, as they were chosen from a wide range of supporters groups/websites. As I was one of the original group of around 30/40 people that was invited. Over time, more people were invited, people (including me) were given the chance to bring someone along, and most did. 

I had a very frank conversation with DC about the ticket pricing when he brought in about 8 categories IIRC, and the media had a field day with it. He spoke about 'flexibility' in pricing, and it not meaning that the top whack of £52 IIRC would unlikely be used, but I said if you put it out there, then the media will jump on it and say that's what we are going to charge. To be fair to DC we never did use that price bracket, but it was a stick that was used very frequently to beat him with. 

Yet despite me covering things on here, reps from OT putting things out on there, and various other places, they always seemingly decended into farce, as while there was a smattering of new questions there was always old ground being covered. Then there were questions about tactics, player selection, and even players numbers.. So, what was the point? 

The current advisory groups as Ty alluded to earlier, are ones which are mandated on clubs now. DC and the club brought them into the club a LONG TIME before they were mandatory. But it didn't really help. So it's easy to see now why people see them as just a tick box exercise. The club tried to make them more informative, give the fans more of a voice, but when the effectiveness of them was diluted, by stupid, and very often repeated questions by newcomers. That's not DC's fault. 

Fuck me tel. 

Talk about killing a vibe 

[Andyben]

22 minutes ago, Jake said:

It was me that actually doubted the legitimacy of an X poll. I was simply trying to state the available ways of attempting to gauge people’s views. 

Flip the question, what makes you think that it’s a minority who want DC out? Impossible question to accurately answer. 

I’m not the type to think it isn’t ok to have a differing opinion, quite the opposite. One of the first times I aired my views publicly I constantly objected to fans being called fickle in regard to protest, I don’t believe criticising fellow fans is necessary or productive. We do all want the same thing.

I’m glad this debate has remained civil, I’ve benefitted from it in that I may not be quite as militant as I maybe have been in the past. This is genuinely the only format where I have heard the counter argument, without the ridiculousness of X. I don’t agree that Chansiri is the right man for the club but have conceded I may not have been correct in some areas.  

Going to try and refrain tonight as I’m off out on the source and late night Jake, is a bit more Reesh, than Hirsty’s 12th pint 😊
 

Jake.

Admit it.

 I'm a fucking legend and have forgot more on the shitter this morning than the whole of owlstalk will ever know.

[Jake]

8 minutes ago, Andyben said:

Jake.

Admit it.

 I'm a fucking legend and have forgot more on the shitter this morning than the whole of owlstalk will ever know.

“We’ll agree to disagree” 

[Supercockle]

54 minutes ago, Jake said:

It was me that actually doubted the legitimacy of an X poll. I was simply trying to state the available ways of attempting to gauge people’s views. 

Flip the question, what makes you think that it’s a minority who want DC out? Impossible question to accurately answer. 

I’m not the type to think it isn’t ok to have a differing opinion, quite the opposite. One of the first times I aired my views publicly I constantly objected to fans being called fickle in regard to protest, I don’t believe criticising fellow fans is necessary or productive. We do all want the same thing.

I’m glad this debate has remained civil, I’ve benefitted from it in that I may not be quite as militant as I maybe have been in the past. This is genuinely the only format where I have heard the counter argument, without the ridiculousness of X. I don’t agree that Chansiri is the right man for the club but have conceded I may not have been correct in some areas.  

Going to try and refrain tonight as I’m off out on the source and late night Jake, is a bit more Reesh, than Hirsty’s 12th pint 😊
 

Thanks for your contribution over the week. It’s good to have people offering counter arguments and being prepared to listen to opposing views. 
 

What I would say on DC is that probably 90% of people are critical of him on some front. On this forum I think most people are also recognising a change in approach from him and so are prepared (for now) to put his mistakes in the past and look forward. 
 

We have debated ticket prices for years. Yes, we’d like them to be cheaper and for the average fan, the prospect of £40+ for some games for an adult ticket is a more than we would want to pay. That said, we have largely rationalised away prices (we’re not the cheapest, we’re not the most expensive), deadlines for renewal both in timing and length and other things as necessary evils to try to give us a competitive squad. 
 

We know his communication style leaves something to be desired but most of us aren’t offended nor bothered by it. We don’t see it as that important. 
 

What most of us care about are the sustainability of the club financially and on the footballing side. 
 

It could rightly be said that Chansiri failed historically on both fronts. We have been subject to penalties due to fucking up the ground sale and that’s on him. We also chased glory from day 1, expecting to get promoted to the Prem and for us not to have to worry about FFP rules. Again, Chansiri takes some of the blame (though not all, as we were 90 minutes from the Prem and in the playoffs the year after but bottled it both times.  You cannot argue he didn’t back his manager). But you can argue that our approach was short term thinking. When it failed and we were eventually relegated, we had to use short term thinking again to build a team to get promoted. We have never really been building for the future. 

This season that has changed. We have bought decent young player who could bring resale income, not just signed players in their 30s. 

We’ve got one of the best managerial talents there is. He is happy here, he is loving it. He is building something. 
 

There are other signs that DC is learning, as AB has listed. 

I acknowledge that DC is changing things for the better in the areas that matter to me and hope that continues.

I don’t fool myself that he is perfect but I do think he genuinely cares about the club. I also think he would sell if he found someone who could take the club to the next level and do a better job than him. 
 

Anyway, good to have you here. Have a great evening. 

[Andyben]

37 minutes ago, Jake said:

“We’ll agree to disagree” 

I'm right  tho.

And I've also put a buyout in place 

[Jake]

6 minutes ago, Andyben said:

I'm right  tho.

And I've also put a buyout in place 

🤞🏻

[BraddersTim]

1 minute ago, Jake said:

🤞🏻

Be very careful what you wish for!

[HoylandOwl]

1 hour ago, Andyben said:

Fuck me tel. 

Talk about killing a vibe 

Fancy being your age and using the word 'vibe'.... 😁

[Jake]

39 minutes ago, BraddersTim said:

Be very careful what you wish for!

The grass isn’t always greener. 

[Andyben]

1 hour ago, HoylandOwl said:

Fancy being your age and using the word 'vibe'.... 😁

Fancy being your age and thinking a chunky knit cardigan is acceptable menswear

[Andyben]

27 minutes ago, Jake said:

The grass isn’t always greener. 

It could be sky blue pink with yellow polka dots and would still be better than anything your or the other nevs have in mind...

Still not seen a single response about what you'd do post DC

[Jake]

15 minutes ago, Andyben said:

It could be sky blue pink with yellow polka dots and would still be better than anything your or the other nevs have in mind...

Still not seen a single response about what you'd do post DC

Passive aggressiveness is so page 35 of this thread.