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Well done Howard for releasing a clip where VAR 'worked'. Although you could argue that it wasn't a clear and obvious error when they had to rock and roll the footage several times to determine it had come off his knee first and the arm was natural. 

Now release footage where it's had an absolute shocker, like when you made a personal apology to De Zerbi for that mare of a decision not to give a penalty. 

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  • 11 months later...

VAR worked perfectly in the 2018 world cup because it was used for what it was built for. To review clear and obvious errors. 

It wasn't used to scrutinise every goal or spot a player with size 11 boots being offside because he was stood next to a player wearing size 9s and it wasn't all about someone not even in the stadium making the decisions. 

Refs have to go back to actually reffing the game, linos have to put their flags up, and real time human decision making and errors have to be brought back into the game. I've no problem VAR staying provided it stays in the background and only gets involved it's a nailed down obvious error. Even then the ref can chose to ignore the advice. 

Edited by Tylluan
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8 hours ago, Tylluan said:

VAR worked perfectly in the 2018 world cup because it was used for what it was built for. To review clear and obvious errors. 

It wasn't used to scrutinise every goal or spot a player with size 11 boots being offside because he was stood next to a player wearing size 9s and it wasn't all about someone not even in the stadium making the decisions. 

Refs have to go back to actually reffing the game, linos have to put their flags up, and real time human decision making and errors have to be brought back into the game. I've no problem VAR staying provided it stays in the background and only gets involved it's a nailed down obvious error. Even then the ref can chose to ignore the advice. 

Spot on. And there also has to be the concept of ‘on field decision’ in marginal cases, including offsides. Quick look, too close to call, stick with the initial decision and move on.

Basically VAR is like refs themselves in the sense that the more you notice it, the more it is failing. 

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If offside becomes automated, like in UCL, then there's no need for VAR.

Each team will know the parameters for offside before first match of the season and it will be the same for every match so no stupid punditry.

I'm certain the current VAR policies  have been driven by Neville and Carragher etc who scrutinised every decision with all their technology and critised the refs and VAR teams

Doesn't really matter now as we've always been too shit for it to affect us.

Embarrassing 

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The problem is simply you are still putting humans in charge of the decision making - so it is still judgement calls half the time. The Anthony penalty call last night being the latest example. Did the VAR focus on Casemiro's challenge missing the rack down the achilles. 

The one absolute truth is that it loses the spontaneity of the moment in the stadium. Do the EPL care because it adds to the tension for the armchair fan.

 

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7 minutes ago, Andyben said:

If offside becomes automated, like in UCL, then there's no need for VAR.

Each team will know the parameters for offside before first match of the season and it will be the same for every match so no stupid punditry.

I'm certain the current VAR policies  have been driven by Neville and Carragher etc who scrutinised every decision with all their technology and critised the refs and VAR teams

Doesn't really matter now as we've always been too shit for it to affect us.

Embarrassing 

Certainly true that Sky for years basically called for VAR as they highlighted the blatant errors and thought the TV camera would resolve it all. 

It doesn't because you are taking a 3D world being judged on a 2D screen. Offsides can depend on the camera angle, they say its calibrated, who knows.

So if the tech is automated it works. The question is whether you still want it for other decisions eg was a challenge a red card. Because the on field ref can easily get that wrong due to his position or lack of clear view. That is of benefit 

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31 minutes ago, mkowl said:

Certainly true that Sky for years basically called for VAR as they highlighted the blatant errors and thought the TV camera would resolve it all. 

It doesn't because you are taking a 3D world being judged on a 2D screen. Offsides can depend on the camera angle, they say its calibrated, who knows.

So if the tech is automated it works. The question is whether you still want it for other decisions eg was a challenge a red card. Because the on field ref can easily get that wrong due to his position or lack of clear view. That is of benefit 

Maradona cheating vermin or World Cup winner.  Clear and obvious, except for three blind mice.

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1 hour ago, lyn_owl said:

Why not abolish offside altogether?

The unintended consequences of that though 

The game would descend to being like basketball or handball in about 6 months - Pep's master tactic of 80 yard balls to Haaland stood a yard in front of the keeper in their dynamic 5 0 5 formation 

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11 hours ago, Tylluan said:

VAR worked perfectly in the 2018 world cup because it was used for what it was built for. To review clear and obvious errors. 

It wasn't used to scrutinise every goal or spot a player with size 11 boots being offside because he was stood next to a player wearing size 9s and it wasn't all about someone not even in the stadium making the decisions. 

Refs have to go back to actually reffing the game, linos have to put their flags up, and real time human decision making and errors have to be brought back into the game. I've no problem VAR staying provided it stays in the background and only gets involved it's a nailed down obvious error. Even then the ref can chose to ignore the advice. 

VAR didn't work perfectly in 2018 at all. It was a shambles then and it's even worse illogical mess now.

They will keep it though. Sunk cost fallacy now.

A system where a player will be checked to see if he's offside if he scores but not if his shot is tipped round the post for a corner they might score from. Absolute horseshit.

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Needs to pass by two thirds so they need 13 other clubs to vote with them.

According to the Beeb four clubs have already indicated they’ll vote against, whilst none have yet sided with Wolves.

They also speculated that all the clubs who qualify for the European competitions will not want to play in the PL without VAR and then in Europe with. 

Edited by cheat
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12 minutes ago, cheat said:

Needs to pass by two thirds so they need 13 other clubs to vote with them.

According to the Beeb four clubs have already indicated they’ll vote against, whilst none have yet sided with Wolves.

They also speculated that all the clubs who qualify for the European competitions will not want to play in the PL without VAR and then in Europe with. 

It’s ok in the FA Cup though against those who can’t/don’t have it. 

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13 minutes ago, cheat said:

Needs to pass by two thirds so they need 13 other clubs to vote with them.

According to the Beeb four clubs have already indicated they’ll vote against, whilst none have yet sided with Wolves.

They also speculated that all the clubs who qualify for the European competitions will not want to play in the PL without VAR and then in Europe with. 

Suspect Wolves have raised this with the expectation that they will not get the required backing to push through any change.

More likely sabre rattling a la Forest the other week.  Wolves have had some dubious decisions and the scene was set when their player was punched in the head first game of season and then the awful decision that got the Blades a last minute penalty at home against Wolves.

 

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Wolves have tables the motion, and gone extremely public with it, in order to keep VAR inconsistencies and PGMOL responses in the public conscious. 

They're forcing PGMOL to come up with an operating redesign to placate the clubs they're supposed to be servicing. There's talk of 60 second judgements and checks only when the ref asks

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13 minutes ago, Tylluan said:

Wolves have tables the motion, and gone extremely public with it, in order to keep VAR inconsistencies and PGMOL responses in the public conscious. 

They're forcing PGMOL to come up with an operating redesign to placate the clubs they're supposed to be servicing. There's talk of 60 second judgements and checks only when the ref asks

Then that is just as it was before...

Some refs will only ask when they want to...

 

Give a goal to their favourites

Or

Deny a goal against their favourites.

 

It will still come down to bent refereeing.

IMHO

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58 minutes ago, Tylluan said:

Wolves have tables the motion, and gone extremely public with it, in order to keep VAR inconsistencies and PGMOL responses in the public conscious. 

They're forcing PGMOL to come up with an operating redesign to placate the clubs they're supposed to be servicing. There's talk of 60 second judgements and checks only when the ref asks


That’s nonsense.

If the ref misses something, how does he know to get VAR involved?

And then, for many incidents the ref is confident that he’s right and that he doesn’t need a check by VAR. But it’s the view from an angle not available to the ref that proves categorically that his initial decision is wrong.

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12 hours ago, M42Owl said:

That’s nonsense.

If the ref misses something, how does he know to get VAR involved?

At the moment VAR decides if it's a goal, not the ref. If the ref is happy then no need to go to Stockley but if he's unsure or the lino puts his flag up for a foul he's not seen then he has the back up of the extra set of eyes if he needs to. A bit like umpires review in cricket. 

12 hours ago, M42Owl said:

And then, for many incidents the ref is confident that he’s right and that he doesn’t need a check by VAR. But it’s the view from an angle not available to the ref that proves categorically that his initial decision is wrong.

And that goes back to how games were officiated before VAR. The selling point of VAR is clear and obvious, not picking up fouls from angles. VAR is AI induced with 360 angles and frame by frame insight that never happens 'in game' with the human eye. 

But VAR could be used for off the ball incidents that happen out of sight or deliberate infringements the ref has had a complete mare about, such as knocking or holding a player at a corner. But those would also need to be clear and obvious, like all of us instantly shouting foul at the TV, without the need to spend 3 minutes 'rock n rolling' the footage to see if it had a clear impact on the game. 

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2 hours ago, Owling_Wolf said:

IMO they also need to redefine offside. Who the hell wants to see goals chalked off because of the length of a toenail?

Clear and obvious offside so that it can be seen in real time by the human eye. No AI  lines drawn on a simulated pitch. 

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2 hours ago, Owling_Wolf said:

IMO they also need to redefine offside. Who the hell wants to see goals chalked off because of the length of a toenail?

This will be partly alleviated by the new tech they’ve got coming, but at the moment the margin of error is about 10-15cm, yet they measure to the millimetre. 

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4 hours ago, Tylluan said:

At the moment VAR decides if it's a goal, not the ref. If the ref is happy then no need to go to Stockley but if he's unsure or the lino puts his flag up for a foul he's not seen then he has the back up of the extra set of eyes if he needs to. A bit like umpires review in cricket. 


I might be missing something here, but your reply seems to miss the point I’m trying to make.

For example: a blatant hand ball but not to the ref and lino. They miss it. The ref is happy because he genuinely thinks he right. So it doesn’t go to Stockley. 30 seconds later Sky have the replay showing a clear and obvious mistake, but it can’t be corrected by VAR because ref is happy with his original decision. 
 

I don’t think it’s like umpire’s review at all. That is when the umpire is not sure: did the catch carry, was it a run out? The scenario I’m giving has the ref “certain” in his decision. He’s wrong, he’s made a mistake, but at the time he’s certain that he’s made the correct decision. Do there would be no review. A player review process would be better. No involvement for VAR (except offside) unless a captain requests a review. Two appeals max per 45 mins.

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17 minutes ago, Tewksbury said:

Just stick whatever they use for goal line technology then.

There are systems that are accurate enough and light enough to use that they can chuck in the players bra.

Goal line tech is camera based and made easier by only being required in a very small area. Any positional based system would require accuracy to millimetres, with location being given hundreds of times per second, in an environment that is very noisy. 
 

The system the PL is moving to cuts down the error margin to ~2-3cm. If there was something that could cut it down further, someone would be trying to sell it. 

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I'd always thought you could use 'substitutions' to make appeals. Say you start with 5 subs to make, if you make an appeal that isn't successful, then you lose a sub and you can only make 4. If you've used all your subs, then you can't appeal. That would stop them being used spuriously.

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1 hour ago, M42Owl said:

For example: a blatant hand ball but not to the ref and lino. They miss it. The ref is happy because he genuinely thinks he right. So it doesn’t go to Stockley. 30 seconds later Sky have the replay showing a clear and obvious mistake, but it can’t be corrected by VAR because ref is happy with his original decision. 

This comes under the second part of my reply in that it's blatant and missed so it's clear and obvious. But I'll caveat that it's only blatant if it should have been picked up in real time (hence the point about the instant fan response when watching live on Sky) and not revealed by Sky at half time after using an oblique angle the officials could ever have seen from. 

Henri's handball against Ireland in the qualifier is a prime example of a missed clear and obvious

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Cricket and tennis style appeals, directly related to the amount of substitutes you can use? 

Never heard so much cobblers, I had to check my browser as I thought I'd inadvertently clicked on the wrong site.

If it was left to me i'd scrap it all and go back to where we were previously. Slice the technology up into layers and reintroduce it only when it had been tried, tested and perfected.

The foul on the Newcastle lad (Gordon) the other night shows just how crap it is. Bowen at the sty v West ham and there's more. We've always suspected some bias in refs and some VAR decisions just prove it to me.

I'd start the reintroduction of it only when it was fully automated and instantaneous and not before. Could be a few years? So be it.

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