Mindset reset

[mkowlthesexynewversion]

I think this applies irrespective of the match Thursday, the presumption however is the season ends. 

The topic title refers to 2 areas, one us the fans (or some of them) and the other the owner.

For the fans it is time to simply accept we are not a big club. Our tradition, history and achievements are frankly irrelevant. Our average place in the pyramid this last 25 years is something daft like 40th. That history should be an asset but hangs like a liability.

Many other fans see us as arrogant, ideas that we are too big for this league. I have to say, though not on here, there is a lot of justification to that allegation. Particularly during the unbeaten run. 

However the more important consideration is really with the owner. The top line is really what is the intention for him and Sheffield Wednesday. The rumours indicate he is quietly looking to sell on, but what real value is a League 1 club.

So for me he has 2 possible options, sell up or frankly change the approach of how we recruit and develop our playing side. 

The fact that 14 players (I believe) are out of contract is beyond comprehension. I get the way football works then churn is always going to be high, 20% to 30% maybe but 50%.

I think the impact this uncertainty for the players at this business end of the season can not be underestimated. 

But it's my long term bugbear. When DC came in, he did bring the funds to uplift us, to address some of the infrastructure issues that were holding us back. The play offs in 2016 in hindsight came too early. It lead to a mindset of sprinting to the line. No real long term planning, spend and fuck the consequences, enticing ageing players that have gained promotion elsewhere, not on sourcing players with potential.

I get why, this is where the 2 worlds above collide. Our fans want the quick fix, we are "too good" for this. DC seeks to fulfill this.

Frankly I don't think either mindset will really change and in that case then ultimately, in my opinion, we will never progress 

[HoylandOwl]

I get what you’re saying MK. But I think it will be like the last point you make. The expectation won’t change, it’s the way of the world now for many in football. Win or your shit. ‘Success’ or your shit. 
There clearly needs to be a wholesale shift from within now, it’s been needed for a while but it has to happen now.

As you say, the number of players out of contract is high, too high really, and the age of the squad needs lowering. We’ve got very little in terms of resale value and you could argue that we’ve gone similar to 2016 in that we threw the eggs in the basket wage wise, whereas back then we did it fee and wage wise and it’s got us exactly the same result. Disappointment and massively frustrating that the sum of the parts never seems to get its proper potential total.

[mkowlthesexynewversion]

As I have never been shy about saying, that summer of recruitment post the Hull defeat was the killer in many ways. I understood the rush for the line approach, it could have worked, but when it didn't .....

As fans no one as the patience for the long game, even if you look at Brighton and Brentford and see what rewards it can bring

League 1 needs to be the place to change that mindset but our fans will froth at the prospect 

[HoylandOwl]

Yeah. Bang on mate. There’s no time for stability to get success in football anymore. 

[EBRA]

There’s a table out there at moment which shows number of minutes u23 players played in season per club.

Plymouth Barnsley and Peterborough hover around 18000 to 19000 Bolton 15000 minutes.

Ipswich are low down at 8000 ish indeed their 3rd bottom.

However we are rock bottom 4000 minutes off second bottom Wycombe, on just 2076.

 

 

 

[Otto_Man]

I've seen this stat a few times and it's always baffled me because all it means is all these other clubs are better at signing young players on loan from higher up clubs. They have to be, because they have to gamble they're going to unearth a gem who might keep them up.

It's being interpreted as all these clubs are better at bringing through young players which the vast majority aren't. Mason-Clarke for Peterborough last night they signed him from Barnett

Edited May 13, 2023 by Otto_Man

[Winco]

For me we’re just wank in the games that matter the most, we just crumble.

play off last year -lost

relegation the year before

the Huddersfield play off defeat

the Hull defeat.

throw in odd promotion and relegation then we go way back to the Cardiff final.

just mediocre at best with fan base that most clubs would die for.

 

[Andyben]

Our minutes were all McGuinness who's in loan, the other teams mentioned have plenty of on loan youngsters too so meh.

But on the mindset.

This season will have long term reprocussions.

None of the potential buyers want a Div 3 team. 

We'll more than likely lose Windass and Byers.

Moore won't go  this summer so the feeling around the first team will still be what an achievement 96 pts was.

Same type of players, same defunct playing style.

Relegation to Div 4 isn't out of the question.

Neither is administration.

DC needs to shit or get of the pan: 

Mass clear out of playing and coaching staff with a 2024/5 target for promotion.

Basically what we should have done two seasons ago.

He won't

We're in significant trouble.

I'll be back once he's gone. Either DC or DM.

Not wasting any more energy on this

Edited May 13, 2023 by Andyben

[Andyben]

...unless we win 5-0 and beat the dingles/Bolton in the play offs.

[Otto_Man]

Alright asking the question a different way...our preferred starting 11 contains 2 academy products. How many other sides in this league can say that?

[HoylandOwl]

6 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

Alright asking the question a different way...our preferred starting 11 contains 2 academy products. How many other sides in this league can say that?

How many more teams in our division would have them both?

[Otto_Man]

Just now, HoylandOwl said:

How many more teams in our division would have them both?

More than you'd think I suspect 

[Andyben]

Irrelevant.

Would Plymouth or Ipswich have either.

No

[Otto_Man]

How many of these u23s that have notched up all these minutes would you have? 

[Andyben]

Fuck knows  don't watch any other teams but have you seen the price of fish eh 

[mkowlthesexynewversion]

16 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

How many of these u23s that have notched up all these minutes would you have? 

The point I am making its the mindset. We have approached our plan to going for a short term fix for the last 7 years under DC. I get why we did it in summer 2016, but when the shit or bust approach failed what were the repercussions. Well a points deduction, relegation and another quick fix attempt

It in all probability fail again. 

Do you keep doing the same thing and then shrug your shoulders when it goes wrong 

I get it, football is a short term game, 2 weeks is a long time, no one has the patience to wait 

Many on here were happy with the results despite the warnings that poor performances were underlying it. 

You ultimately reap what you sow, and that in my opinion needs to change 

 

 

 

[Otto_Man]

But in any other season ever in any division of the EFL, 96 points gets you autos and probably the title. So I guess I'm struggling to see what we got so "wrong"?! 

[bricat]

I commented at the time of the Christmas window that Moore (who I have never rated anyway) would stand or fall by his lack of involvement in the Christmas window. He may have been correct in thinking he couldn't have improved the squad but we have an unbeleivable injury record in recent seasons. He seems reluctant to involve our youngsters (maybe rightly or wrongly) so extra bodies would have been handy to make up the numbers, especially as suspensions also hit in at the final part of the season. He , in my opinion , failed in his last window strategy. Also we have some players who seriously under perform in key games, to me, despite having a decent season otherwise, Dawson falls into that category. Hillsborough atmosphere on Thursday will be surreal to say the least. Hopefully , it will be the last time some of the wankers will be representing the club either on and off the pitch.Particularly the first team coaching staff.

Edited May 13, 2023 by bricat

[Andyben]

We dint go up automatically when we were in driving seat and played a piss poor set up that a blind man on a galloping horse could see a way to counter and over run.

 

[EastCraigsOwl]

3 hours ago, mkowlthesexynewversion said:

As I have never been shy about saying, that summer of recruitment post the Hull defeat was the killer in many ways. I understood the rush for the line approach, it could have worked, but when it didn't .....

As fans no one as the patience for the long game, even if you look at Brighton and Brentford and see what rewards it can bring

League 1 needs to be the place to change that mindset but our fans will froth at the prospect 

I'm happy with a potential long term approach. Let them froth!

[mkowlthesexynewversion]

34 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

But in any other season ever in any division of the EFL, 96 points gets you autos and probably the title. So I guess I'm struggling to see what we got so "wrong"?! 

Moore or Chansiri or both.

 

[EBRA]

I think the point about u23 and the loan market from the stats is when it came to the end of the season did our players have the hunger and health to keep up? Hunger not helped by the contract situation / Health not helped by the age situation?

IMHO we should of done more with the loan market - one thing about a loan player - they may not care about what the next season will be like at that club but they lap up the experience and possibly glory that big games can bring. The host club and fans being beneficiaries of that effort - yes assuming you get a good one. 

 

[EBRA]

36 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

But in any other season ever in any division of the EFL, 96 points gets you autos and probably the title. So I guess I'm struggling to see what we got so "wrong"?! 

Squad depth via loan market for when things got rough with injuries and the thing we’ve needed for a long term - lack of pace. 

[mkowlthesexynewversion]

Just now, EBRA said:

I think the point about u23 and the loan market from the stats is when it came to the end of the season did our players have the hunger and health to keep up? Hunger not helped by the contract situation / Health not helped by the age situation?

IMHO we should of done more with the loan market - one thing about a loan player - they may not care about what the next season will be like at that club but they lap up the experience and possibly glory that big games can bring. The host club and fans being beneficiaries of that effort - yes assuming you get a good one. 

 

The issue is that the success with younger players on loan has come from the defensive prospects, McGuinness this year, Storey the one before.

Correct me but I can't recall an attack minded young loan player that Moore has successfully integrated into how we play. 

So I am not convinced this mythical saviour would have turned up in January

But you compare us with both Ipswich and Plymouth and they seem better prepared to deal with the Championship than we ever would.

You look at our neighbours who found a manager and group of players, playing style that not only got them promoted from League 1, but formed the spine to getting to the EPL as well.

 

[mkowlthesexynewversion]

And I don't think it can be underestimated how the lack of certainty for the players approaching the end of their contracts and for some feasibly their career has impacted the on the field performance. 

 

[Tylluan]

40 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

But in any other season ever in any division of the EFL, 96 points gets you autos and probably the title. So I guess I'm struggling to see what we got so "wrong"?! 

What we got 'wrong' was that we didn't match the other two teams, that were also heading towards 90+ points, when it mattered.

"Plymouth have to drop off at some point" They didn't. "Ipswich still have to go to Oakwell" Look how that turned out. 

But the main one was "two games in hand, Forest Green and Cheltenham to play". Yea well...

The number of points doesn't matter it's finishing in the top two. Ipswich and Plymouth didn't worry about who we had left to play. They carried on. 

We didn't 

[HoylandOwl]

The games at Forest Green, Burton, the home game v Exeter and last night showed all our failings. Although of course I know we beat Exeter. 

I’ll never fathom why, in these games we continued to lump it time after time when in the small moments in those games we did anything of worth, it was ball on the deck, get it wide, cross or play quick, positive short passes. 

Another thing…As we’ve all seen this year, Smith isn’t a hold up man, he isn’t a channel runner (not withstanding him actually giving it a go) he’s a player who only comes to life in the box. So play to his strength. He’s not a young pup learning his trade. Now he’s getting absolute dogs abuse for that chance last night and many calls of him being absolutely shit, which he clearly isn’t for me. No. He’s not a worldy, of course not. I’m not saying that. 
Im convinced this season if we had Messi we’d still lump it to him and hope he’d win the flick on. 

It’s just a massive missed opportunity. And the pain could be prolonged. We needed to get out this season. We won’t now, and That’s what hurts.

 

[Andyben]

Erling Haaland would have scored 18 under Moore this season 

[Supercockle]

2 hours ago, Andyben said:

Erling Haaland would have scored 18 under Moore this season 

From Right Wingback. 

[Chelters]

I understand the reaction but it’s worth remembering that it took Sunderland and Ipswich four years to get out of this division, and they didn’t get as close as we have. 
I do think we need a change of approach now but it doesn’t need to be a complete revolution. Signing some pace and changing the formation might be all it needs.

I also agree the expectation is an albatross around the necks. It’s understandable but success in elite sport is about marginal gains and a more positive fan base would be one of the 2%s that could improve us. 

[Supercockle]

2 hours ago, mkowlthesexynewversion said:

The issue is that the success with younger players on loan has come from the defensive prospects, McGuinness this year, Storey the one before.

Correct me but I can't recall an attack minded young loan player that Moore has successfully integrated into how we play. 

So I am not convinced this mythical saviour would have turned up in January

But you compare us with both Ipswich and Plymouth and they seem better prepared to deal with the Championship than we ever would.

You look at our neighbours who found a manager and group of players, playing style that not only got them promoted from League 1, but formed the spine to getting to the EPL as well.

 

I think that’s because Moore knows what he’s looking for in the defensive department but doesn’t when it comes to forwards. He should have added someone to his coaching and recruitment staff that was much more attacking minded than he is. Someone who’d have the ability to influence Moore with substitutions that actually changed the formation not just the personnel. 

[mkowlthesexynewversion]

Combining the last 2 posts it would actually make sense for Moore to become a director of football. Especially if DC is intent on staying. 

[Supercockle]

2 hours ago, HoylandOwl said:

The games at Forest Green, Burton, the home game v Exeter and last night showed all our failings. Although of course I know we beat Exeter. 

I’ll never fathom why, in these games we continued to lump it time after time when in the small moments in those games we did anything of worth, it was ball on the deck, get it wide, cross or play quick, positive short passes. 

Another thing…As we’ve all seen this year, Smith isn’t a hold up man, he isn’t a channel runner (not withstanding him actually giving it a go) he’s a player who only comes to life in the box. So play to his strength. He’s not a young pup learning his trade. Now he’s getting absolute dogs abuse for that chance last night and many calls of him being absolutely shit, which he clearly isn’t for me. No. He’s not a worldy, of course not. I’m not saying that. 
Im convinced this season if we had Messi we’d still lump it to him and hope he’d win the flick on. 

It’s just a massive missed opportunity. And the pain could be prolonged. We needed to get out this season. We won’t now, and That’s what hurts.

 

I thought and hoped the decision to lump it in those games came from the fact that the squad was down to its bare bones and dead on its feet. We didn’t have the energy to keep up the high press approach for more than 15 minutes. However, I cannot explain why he chose that approach last night. I found myself screaming at Smith last night that he had to make it stick, whilst all the time thinking he’s not that type of player, so why do we persist with it. 
 

Ferguson got it right last night. Moore got it wrong. I’d say in those pressure games, such as last night, Moore had lost the battle of the managers wits in most of them. That’s a big worry. 

[Andyben]

2 minutes ago, mkowlthesexynewversion said:

Combining the last 2 posts it would actually make sense for Moore to become a director of football. Especially if DC is intent on staying. 

DC will go. Just needs to pay him what he wants 

[Supercockle]

1 minute ago, mkowlthesexynewversion said:

Combining the last 2 posts it would actually make sense for Moore to become a director of football. Especially if DC is intent on staying. 

I think it would be a great move. For me, Moore has been very good for the club, but not successful on the pitch, which is somewhat fundamental. I’d like him to build the club, set the positive tone, the culture etc but someone else has to determine the playing style. 

As you say, we need to plan for the future, not plan for promotion. Try to get young players, hopefully through youth system but also taking and chance on some. Accept we’ll have to sell some along the way, but build for the future. Do like Brentford and co have done with considerable success in recent years. 

[Andyben]

2 minutes ago, Supercockle said:

I thought and hoped the decision to lump it in those games came from the fact that the squad was down to its bare bones and dead on its feet. We didn’t have the energy to keep up the high press approach for more than 15 minutes. However, I cannot explain why he chose that approach last night. I found myself screaming at Smith last night that he had to make it stick, whilst all the time thinking he’s not that type of player, so why do we persist with it. 
 

Ferguson got it right last night. Moore got it wrong. I’d say in those pressure games, such as last night, Moore had lost the battle of the managers wits in most of them. That’s a big worry. 

If we're playing same way Thursday, then put flint up front with Windass and Smith around him, and Vaulks/Adeniran in Midfield and let Bannan do whatever he wants.

Stockdale 

Palmer Ihiekwe James  Johnson 

Vaulks Adeniran Bannan 

Smith Flint Windass

 

[Andyben]

Moore has been very good for the club

Relegation and twice losing in play offs with the almighty fuck up that was this season.

 

[Supercockle]

2 minutes ago, Andyben said:

Moore has been very good for the club

Relegation and twice losing in play offs with the almighty fuck up that was this season.

 

I perhaps should have added a little more context to support my argument but I couldn’t be arsed. In summary, I don’t want him as the manager but would be happy for him to continue at the club in some capacity as I think he’s done positive things in terms of community and culture that Chansiri couldn’t and the last few managers couldn’t give a fuck about. 

[Andyben]

But done nothing on the playing side...

[Supercockle]

Just now, Andyben said:

But done nothing on the playing side...

I agree. Other managers would have done a lot better with the resources and squad. 

[Tylluan]

Complete reset? Here goes. 

Barring a miracle Thursday night, Chansiri holds a short press conference on Friday morning thanking Darren and his staff and wishing them well as they empty their lockers. No questions allowed but it finishes with a 'further Comms will be forthcoming'

Following Tuesday there's a pre-recorded release introducing Howard Wilkinson as interim head of football. (Hodgson is 75 so why not) Wilkinson's role is described as overseeing a complete revamp of the footballing side of the club. 

Bank holiday Monday (specifically chosen as that's play off weekend) Wilko and DC announce Mark Allen as Sporting Director responsible for onfield football matters. A full statement to be released later. 

Full statement reveals academy to end at u16s and formation of B team (a & b teams like Chelsea) and Danny Walker to be new B team manager. 

Statement also reveals proposed football structure built around sustainability and continuity of the playing side. Models like Brighton, Brentford, etc are highlighted. Most importantly Chansiri comes out and says he's throwing no more money at it and it'll be slow and steady from now on and any fan who wants a season ticket refund can have one because he only wants the right support on this journey. 

Once the infrastructure is in place we find a manager/coach who can work within this framework. Make your own mind up on that one but I'd go for Luke Williams, a coach that grows with the team. 

Wilko overseas the infrastructure changes but sits above Allen.

Allen overseas both footballing branches and aids recruitment. 

The B and 1st teams are run as separate entities but with interchangeable playing staff. Walker and Williams are responsible for their own domain 

 

[owl71]

Well that sounds like a plan 👍

The phrase “aggressive patience” might come in useful.  It is precisely what we, as a football club and fan base, need more of.

[Mark]

There is an obvious need 4 a mindset and approach change. But will it be allowed 2 happen with the pressure a manager,Chairman,backroom staff would be under?

Our fan base just wouldn't allow it.

I can't be 2 critical of DC as he had s go and it nearly came off and frankly it should have in his 2nd year. Recruitment was at fault in January then as it was this January. 

Can you imagine the crap a manager would get if signing some of the players from clubs like Pboro  Bolton Barnsley have.

Supporters mindset needs 2 change. But mines still fecking fuming

[bricat]

Regarding loan players and their impact. Plymouth showed how it could be done. 

[Owling_Wolf]

3 hours ago, Andyben said:

If we're playing same way Thursday, then put flint up front with Windass and Smith around him, and Vaulks/Adeniran in Midfield and let Bannan do whatever he wants.

Stockdale 

Palmer Ihiekwe James  Johnson 

Vaulks Adeniran Bannan 

Smith Flint Windass

 

Stockdale's past it.  James is too small to play proper centre half and Johnson is not a real full back and never will be.  Oh and Flint can't run and will be offside all the time.  Apart from that, great idea!

[Andyben]

8 minutes ago, Owling_Wolf said:

Stockdale's past it.  James is too small to play proper centre half and Johnson is not a real full back and never will be.  Oh and Flint can't run and will be offside all the time.  Apart from that, great idea!

James is 6ft.

They play with one  striker who Ihiekwe can mark, James is effectively a free man. 

Flint doesn't need to run, he's there to disrupt and tie their centre halves up so Smith and Windass can do what they want.

 

If we're gonna lump it, give out players a fkin head to hit...

 

And Dawson doesn't get another shirt after last night 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Andyben

[Hirstys 12th Pint]

4 hours ago, Tylluan said:

Complete reset? Here goes. 

Barring a miracle Thursday night, Chansiri holds a short press conference on Friday morning thanking Darren and his staff and wishing them well as they empty their lockers. No questions allowed but it finishes with a 'further Comms will be forthcoming'

Following Tuesday there's a pre-recorded release introducing Howard Wilkinson as interim head of football. (Hodgson is 75 so why not) Wilkinson's role is described as overseeing a complete revamp of the footballing side of the club. 

Bank holiday Monday (specifically chosen as that's play off weekend) Wilko and DC announce Mark Allen as Sporting Director responsible for onfield football matters. A full statement to be released later. 

Full statement reveals academy to end at u16s and formation of B team (a & b teams like Chelsea) and Danny Walker to be new B team manager. 

Statement also reveals proposed football structure built around sustainability and continuity of the playing side. Models like Brighton, Brentford, etc are highlighted. Most importantly Chansiri comes out and says he's throwing no more money at it and it'll be slow and steady from now on and any fan who wants a season ticket refund can have one because he only wants the right support on this journey. 

Once the infrastructure is in place we find a manager/coach who can work within this framework. Make your own mind up on that one but I'd go for Luke Williams, a coach that grows with the team. 

Wilko overseas the infrastructure changes but sits above Allen.

Allen overseas both footballing branches and aids recruitment. 

The B and 1st teams are run as separate entities but with interchangeable playing staff. Walker and Williams are responsible for their own domain 

 

I will tell Danny's Mum about his new job on Monday 😀

[Owling_Wolf]

3 hours ago, Andyben said:

James is 6ft.

They play with one  striker who Ihiekwe can mark, James is effectively a free man. 

Flint doesn't need to run, he's there to disrupt and tie their centre halves up so Smith and Windass can do what they want.

 

If we're gonna lump it, give out players a fkin head to hit...

 

And Dawson doesn't get another shirt after last night 

Fantasy Island, Bendy.  

[HoylandOwl]

Just give us a team genuinely doing all it can to try and turn shit around. 

[KrolMong]

I actually think we have tried to mix the young and the old under Moore, and his record of bringing experience in has been fairly good until the injuries bite.

Where he has epically failed is of those younger players.

The list below is every player we have brought in under the age of 26, now tell me how many have been a success?

Famewo

Bakinson

McGuinness

Wilks

Mighten

Storey

Brown

Sow

Adeniran

Byers

Gibson

Corbeanu

Peacock Farrell

Shodipo

John-Jules

Byers is the best, but he’s a crock who’s never going to play 30 games a season.

The three defenders have all been good, but two were loans but the rest, and being honest, have been awful to poor especially from an attacking sense - either due to just poor displays, or Moore misusing them.

What I would say is that, people think this season will end up being a bad one due to us binning the playoffs. But wait for next season, with or without Moore it will be an absolute miracle for us to get in the top 6 given the age of the squad and the monumental rebuild that we will need. I see us losing 10-12 players this summer including a couple we might not want to lose.

Wednesday fans are going to have to accept that next season is a write off, but, I don’t see this as a bad thing if the right sort of recruitment is done over the two windows and we see an improvement over the season. And when I say recruitment, lots of players under 25 with athleticism, fitness and mobility who we can generate fees from further down the stretch. But, as I said at the start, Moore’s record here is a shocker.

I want a team that I feel can run over teams. Peterborough and Barnsley showed that you can do that to us, so we need to build something that can do the same.