Its Make(m) or Break time for the season

[Andyben]

He's right 

[Tank_Owl2,0]

3 hours ago, mkowlthesexynewversion said:

Its the play offs, the 2 better footballing sides got done by 2 better sides at winning a 2 legged tie.

So who knows but I can imagine either us or MK would have lost the final as the pragmatic usually wins thru.

The mantra for next season is aim for top 2, that the play offs simply offer a 2nd bite at the promotion cherry but its a 1 in 4 lottery

Hang on a minute MK, you talk a lot of sense BUT.

Ill admit Carlos's blew a golden opportunity to get into the PL but when he became more pragmatic in his 2nd season he got slated for it by you in particular. Whilst I agree with you on this point I don think it's that easy to have it both ways i.e. one game be fast passing football and the next shithousery of the highest order - unless you have super intelligent footballers with some quality (unlikely in L1). 

What I suppose I'm saying is Wycombe have played pragmatic football all season and Sunderland have become more pragmatic since Neil arrived, and they stuttered a bit in his first few games. DMs version of pragmatic football is simply to sit deep - a low block.

Others have also suggested DM is incapable of getting the team to flex their game but a) it's partly down to the players available and b) partly down to what will work against the opposition. So, if we were playing like Wycombe against Pompey would it have been as enjoyable  - I really doubt it, then the following week away at Sunderland - on the basis he can't change the side (which is what he's been criticised for) is the same team going to a) be sufficiently capable of shithousery or b) attacking but not losing the game in the first leg? I guess what I'm suggesting DM is in a no win situation with some of our fans, ie can't change the team, needs to be pragmatic but also need to be playing fast flowing football. I don't think it's possible to the extremes ppl would like.

[Reesh]

13 hours ago, Tank_Owl2,0 said:

I know it's hypocritical question but if we had lost on the final day and faced MK in the playoffs do you think we'd be playing in the final?

Hypocritical? 

[Otto_Man]

1 hour ago, Reesh said:

Hypocritical? 

He means hyperbole

[Reesh]

4 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

He means hyperbole

Most of his posts are. 

[Tylluan]

1 hour ago, Tank_Owl2,0 said:

Others have also suggested DM is incapable of getting the team to flex their game but a) it's partly down to the players available and b) partly down to what will work against the opposition. So, if we were playing like Wycombe against Pompey would it have been as enjoyable  - I really doubt it, then the following week away at Sunderland - on the basis he can't change the side (which is what he's been criticised for) is the same team going to a) be sufficiently capable of shithousery or b) attacking but not losing the game in the first leg? I guess what I'm suggesting DM is in a no win situation with some of our fans, ie can't change the team, needs to be pragmatic but also need to be playing fast flowing football. I don't think it's possible to the extremes ppl would like.

This sort of works apart from three problems. Against Sunderland away he changed the team, he changed the formation, and he changed the tactics.

He over thought it and then over complicated it, where as Sunderland just played exactly the same way they had since Neil arrived. Our lot had 4 days (day off on Sunday and two half days) to stop thinking about the width (that had got us the results) and go more down the middle (actually playing into Sunderland's strength) 

If we were going to use more or less the same players then just play the way they're used to and the way that got us the results in the first place. 

[mkowlthesexynewversion]

1 hour ago, Tank_Owl2,0 said:

Hang on a minute MK, you talk a lot of sense BUT.

Ill admit Carlos's blew a golden opportunity to get into the PL but when he became more pragmatic in his 2nd season he got slated for it by you in particular. Whilst I agree with you on this point I don think it's that easy to have it both ways i.e. one game be fast passing football and the next shithousery of the highest order - unless you have super intelligent footballers with some quality (unlikely in L1). 

What I suppose I'm saying is Wycombe have played pragmatic football all season and Sunderland have become more pragmatic since Neil arrived, and they stuttered a bit in his first few games. DMs version of pragmatic football is simply to sit deep - a low block.

Others have also suggested DM is incapable of getting the team to flex their game but a) it's partly down to the players available and b) partly down to what will work against the opposition. So, if we were playing like Wycombe against Pompey would it have been as enjoyable  - I really doubt it, then the following week away at Sunderland - on the basis he can't change the side (which is what he's been criticised for) is the same team going to a) be sufficiently capable of shithousery or b) attacking but not losing the game in the first leg? I guess what I'm suggesting DM is in a no win situation with some of our fans, ie can't change the team, needs to be pragmatic but also need to be playing fast flowing football. I don't think it's possible to the extremes ppl would like.

I was really just talking about these play offs and the nature of the sides involved. So not saying which is the right way to approach these to "win" more what proved successful this time. There was as much chance of us winning or indeed losing against any of the opposition. So in the hypothetical question you posed, if we had played MK it would have been a different type of game, but the 2 previous games would have counted for nothing really. 

My point is that the 2 pragmatic sides were pretty decent at doing what they do. And they did it better than we did the football. I think we fell between 2 stones and indeed like Carlos before him played in a way that did not get the best out of the capabilities of the players. 

 

[Tank_Owl2,0]

3 hours ago, mkowlthesexynewversion said:

I was really just talking about these play offs and the nature of the sides involved. So not saying which is the right way to approach these to "win" more what proved successful this time. There was as much chance of us winning or indeed losing against any of the opposition. So in the hypothetical question you posed, if we had played MK it would have been a different type of game, but the 2 previous games would have counted for nothing really. 

My point is that the 2 pragmatic sides were pretty decent at doing what they do. And they did it better than we did the football. I think we fell between 2 stones and indeed like Carlos before him played in a way that did not get the best out of the capabilities of the players. 

 

Hypothetical bloody auto correct.

Ah see what you mean MK re Playoffs, I thought you were talking more generally about the season.

I suppose another way of looking at it is when you are playing pragmatic/ hoof ball it requires less skill /technique which can be nullified (particularly in one off games) lor if particular players have an off game the game can be hard work, which is what we saw for the most part on Monday. 
My reflection on Monday was that our midfield just wasn’t performing to the level we have come to expect and the wing backs were pinned back, all suggesting Neil got things marginally better than DM.

[MPB]

23 hours ago, HoylandOwl said:

Here he is, Negative Nigel before a ball’s even been kicked.

The top two in L1 hardly made any unforced changes......

[MPB]

Can I just say as well....I'm not advocating sacking DM....I don't believe yet another change will do us any good at all....I just want DM to stop overthinking things and panicking like fook when we have midweek games.....which invariably leads to him resting players that don't need resting and bringing in players inferior to the ones he's restin'.....unsettling any momentum we have.....I honestly believe we could have won the league by some distance if DM had just chilled the fook out! 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by MPB

[Otto_Man]

Expect I'm in a minority of 1 here, but I actually think DM has done a pretty decent job this season. It was always going to take a bit of time to gel just given the sheer volume of incomings and outgoings last summer and once it did we played some really enjoyable to watch football.

The fact that the majority of teams came here and set up to play a spoiling game and we still had one of the best home records in the whole football league speaks volumes to me. Hit the ground running next season and we could be a real force imo

[Reesh]

9 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

Expect I'm in a minority of 1 here, but I actually think DM has done a pretty decent job this season. It was always going to take a bit of time to gel just given the sheer volume of incomings and outgoings last summer and once it did we played some really enjoyable to watch football.

The fact that the majority of teams came here and set up to play a spoiling game and we still had one of the best home records in the whole football league speaks volumes to me. Hit the ground running next season and we could be a real force imo

Until an amoeba out thinks him tactically. 

[HoylandOwl]

1 hour ago, Otto_Man said:

Expect I'm in a minority of 1 here, but I actually think DM has done a pretty decent job this season. It was always going to take a bit of time to gel just given the sheer volume of incomings and outgoings last summer and once it did we played some really enjoyable to watch football.

The fact that the majority of teams came here and set up to play a spoiling game and we still had one of the best home records in the whole football league speaks volumes to me. Hit the ground running next season and we could be a real force imo

I'll openly say (and have done before) I'd had my fill of him, the tactics, the monotony of what we saw pre Xmas and the up and down results. But Since Xmas, he's certainly turned a lot of people in his favour. And not in terms of results but general performances too. 

But, I'd have accepted the getting it down and playing it style, to get through the playoffs with a shithouse style. (Yes, I do realise we can't do it with the players we have). The inability to get over the line could prove to be his downfall, Donny fans weren't his biggest fan well before he left them for us. 

I hope he's a success, because it means we're seeing success. I don't want us to keep chopping and changing. And yes, while the fans have got behind the side in the last few months, its a sign of things coming together a little. Consistency is the only thing that will keep that there. Lose two or three out of the first five next season and things will turn, QUICKLY. 

 

[Mark]

2 minutes ago, HoylandOwl said:

I'll openly say (and have done before) I'd had my fill of him, the tactics, the monotony of what we saw pre Xmas and the up and down results. But Since Xmas, he's certainly turned a lot of people in his favour. And not in terms of results but general performances too. 

But, I'd have accepted the getting it down and playing it style, to get through the playoffs with a shithouse style. (Yes, I do realise we can't do it with the players we have). The inability to get over the line could prove to be his downfall, Donny fans weren't his biggest fan well before he left them for us. 

I hope he's a success, because it means we're seeing success. I don't want us to keep chopping and changing. And yes, while the fans have got behind the side in the last few months, its a sign of things coming together a little. Consistency is the only thing that will keep that there. Lose two or three out of the first five next season and things will turn, QUICKLY. 

 

This. Since Xmas he's done well, the football has been good, until Sunderland, and I've enjoyed it, so I reckon overall he's done OK. 

But. I think we'll probably be in a similar situation next season as we are now. Is that failure? You would have to say yes. I just don't think he's the man long term. Sounds crazy but if we had gone up I'd have got rid in the summer. Obviously it wouldn't have happened. 

[Otto_Man]

1 hour ago, Reesh said:

Until an amoeba out thinks him tactically. 

I'll give you Neill in the last two, but other than that who else has actually out thought him? The games we've lost at home have been more bad luck than bad tactics imo. Oxford we conceded chasing the win and Rotherham, we play that game 100 times, we win it 98.

1 minute ago, HoylandOwl said:

I'll openly say (and have done before) I'd had my fill of him, the tactics, the monotony of what we saw pre Xmas and the up and down results. But Since Xmas, he's certainly turned a lot of people in his favour. And not in terms of results but general performances too. 

But, I'd have accepted the getting it down and playing it style, to get through the playoffs with a shithouse style. (Yes, I do realise we can't do it with the players we have). The inability to get over the line could prove to be his downfall, Donny fans weren't his biggest fan well before he left them for us. 

I hope he's a success, because it means we're seeing success. I don't want us to keep chopping and changing. And yes, while the fans have got behind the side in the last few months, its a sign of things coming together a little. Consistency is the only thing that will keep that there. Lose two or three out of the first five next season and things will turn, QUICKLY. 

 

Donny fans have short memories, when he left they were 6th with 2-4 games in hand on the teams above, they collapsed and finished 14th. They're now in L2.

[Reesh]

1 minute ago, Otto_Man said:

I'll give you Neill in the last two, but other than that who else has actually out thought him? The games we've lost at home have been more bad luck than bad tactics imo. Oxford we conceded chasing the win and Rotherham, we play that game 100 times, we win it 98.

Donny fans have short memories, when he left they were 6th with 2-4 games in hand on the teams above, they collapsed and finished 14th. They're now in L2.

He got out thought at Lincoln, out thought at Gillingham, out thought at Wycombe..... 

[HoylandOwl]

1 minute ago, Otto_Man said:

I'll give you Neill in the last two, but other than that who else has actually out thought him? The games we've lost at home have been more bad luck than bad tactics imo. Oxford we conceded chasing the win and Rotherham, we play that game 100 times, we win it 98.

Donny fans have short memories, when he left they were 6th with 2-4 games in hand on the teams above, they collapsed and finished 14th. They're now in L2.

Mate I know what you're saying about when he left Donny, but what I'm saying is a long time before that they weren't having him. Much of the furore about him leaving IMO is where he went to, not when or how he left. 

[MPB]

33 minutes ago, Reesh said:

He got out thought at Lincoln, out thought at Gillingham, out thought at Wycombe..... 

.... Morecambe, Ipswich, Cheltenham, Plymouth, Shrewsbury ....etc etc.....

[JBO]

So every single time a team doesn't win a game it means the manager has been "out thought" ?

 

Couldn't just be that football is chaos and teams quite often just happen to lose games over a season due to events they can't prevent 

[Reesh]

5 minutes ago, JBO said:

So every single time a team doesn't win a game it means the manager has been "out thought" ?

 

Couldn't just be that football is chaos and teams quite often just happen to lose games over a season due to events they can't prevent 

Another Moore fan boy, just what the site needs.

[JBO]

You've out thought me there

[Paul from Wisewood]

In terms of defeats then last season, he’s been ‘ out thought’ less than pretty much every manager in our history 

[MPB]

4 hours ago, JBO said:

So every single time a team doesn't win a game it means the manager has been "out thought" ?

 

Couldn't just be that football is chaos and teams quite often just happen to lose games over a season due to events they can't prevent 

Understand what you're saying but we have a very soft underbelly which comes from the training ground.   We should have gone up autos...that lies at the feet of the gaffer...IMO

Edited May 16, 2022 by MPB

[owl71]

Bloody hell we did take 45 points from the last 20 games…once Moore settled on his formation and we signed enough central defenders to not be playing wingers and midfielders there.

I agree about the soft underbelly though.  If we’d cut out some of the goals conceded from high balls into the box, particularly late on, we would have gone up automatically.  Turn four of our draws into wins and we’d have won the division…two goal lead lost at AFC Wimbledon…BPF dropping the ball at Ipswich…injury time equalisers to hopeful high balls at Bolton and Cheltenham…missed pen and another keeper blunder home to Shrewsbury.

I’m just prepared to wait and see what business we do this Summer.  Last Summer Moore was still working with people left behind by previous managers, and we had FFP constraints.  The January window deals we did addressed weaknesses and improved results, without costing much.  On the basis of that I am cautiously optimistic.

[Otto_Man]

21 hours ago, MPB said:

.... Morecambe, Ipswich, Cheltenham, Plymouth, Shrewsbury ....etc etc.....

Ipswich? Fuck me you're clutching at straws with that one, it's three points if BPF doesn't lose his mind

19 hours ago, JBO said:

So every single time a team doesn't win a game it means the manager has been "out thought" ?

 

Couldn't just be that football is chaos and teams quite often just happen to lose games over a season due to events they can't prevent 

Seems that way JBO, doesn't work the other way though apparently, i.e. DM didn't out think the managers of all the teams we beat, which by my reckoning included 5 wins out of 6 games against the teams that finished in the top 3.

Is DM perfect? Absolutely not, do I reckon we could get autos next season with him? Yes and the football is okay too (which is rare in this awful fucking league)

Edited May 17, 2022 by Otto_Man

[MPB]

32 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

Ipswich? Fuck me you're clutching at straws with that one, it's three points if BPF doesn't lose his mind

Alright....one match, the rest mentioned still stand....

Automatically promoted sides don't fuck about with their line-ups every week ...momentum is key......one of the best runs we went on last season was when the arse dropped out of the squad through injury and we were struggling to fill the bench.....decisions were forced on DM......give him some options and time to think and he confuses himself.....

[KrolMong]

I look at it like this. We ultimately paid between the months of October and Jan for not having fit centre halves. Remember that we played a fair few games with Marvin Johnson at left sided center half, no Hutch, no Iorfa, no Dunkley, no Gibson. We played Paterson there, played Palmer in the middle of the three.

I genuinely think that had we had Storey from the start, and two of the other five fit at the same time, we’d have been 10-15 points better off. And that would have seen us up automatic.

We chopped and changed so much because of an embarrassingly bad injury list. Even in midfield, Luongo missed half a season, Adeniran missed half a season, Byers was out for a few months, we lost Gregory for multiple weeks, we’ve had no Windass at all. We even brought in Harlee Dean, who’s never injured… what happened? Injured. And that lad from Arsenal, what did he play, 20 mins?

[Winco]

7 minutes ago, KrolMong said:

I look at it like this. We ultimately paid between the months of October and Jan for not having fit centre halves. Remember that we played a fair few games with Marvin Johnson at left sided center half, no Hutch, no Iorfa, no Dunkley, no Gibson. We played Paterson there, played Palmer in the middle of the three.

I genuinely think that had we had Storey from the start, and two of the other five fit at the same time, we’d have been 10-15 points better off. And that would have seen us up automatic.

We chopped and changed so much because of an embarrassingly bad injury list. Even in midfield, Luongo missed half a season, Adeniran missed half a season, Byers was out for a few months, we lost Gregory for multiple weeks, we’ve had no Windass at all. We even brought in Harlee Dean, who’s never injured… what happened? Injured. And that lad from Arsenal, what did he play, 20 mins?

Surely DM is looking at all the injury problems from the season and coming to the same conclusion.

it can’t all just be bad luck our injury record is shit.

is it the training ground? The players just injury prone who we sign? 

[KrolMong]

18 minutes ago, Winco said:

Surely DM is looking at all the injury problems from the season and coming to the same conclusion.

it can’t all just be bad luck our injury record is shit.

is it the training ground? The players just injury prone who we sign? 

I think we did make some poor decisions. Gibson, good player, but a poor injury record, we signed Dunkley a year earlier with a broken leg. John Jules (the lad from Arsenal) has had injury issues. Look at Luongo for three years, he’s missed more than he’s played. Iorfa had a bad injury, came back, picked up another bad injury, then came back and picked up another bad injury.

But then look at players like Harlee Dean and Dennis Adeniran. They’ve largely been ever presents at every club, they’ve come here and missed massive chunks of football.

Its a combination of an underlying issue in the club, having to take risks on players due to finances, bad luck and some poor transfer decisions. What I would say is that Moore identified it as an issue in November when the injuries really bit. But how easy it is to solve, god knows. They’ve been talking about the state of the training ground for years and nothings really been done.