When?

[Ozzie]

Apparently bad refereeing decisions even themselves out.

When is it our turn?

[HoylandOwl]

In 2319

[Andyben]

Remember when we went about 18 months without a penalty 

[JBO]

Tbf it was that 18 months we never got in the penalty box

[Teddy Nickelarse]

I dont normally go for the 'world is against us' but we've  certainly not had a fair share of things in terms of refereeing decisions this season so far. 

[mkowl]

1 hour ago, HoylandOwl said:

In 2319

Great only 2 hours and a bit to wait 

[mkowl]

14 minutes ago, Teddy Nickelarse said:

I dont normally go for the 'world is against us' but we've  certainly not had a fair share of things in terms of refereeing decisions this season so far. 

I do sort of understand the decision on Saturday, the ref gets one view, probably both him and the lino looking more if it's a penalty. Did they see the full picture of where the other players are. 

The penalty at Cardiff, it was soft but thought it was daft by Valentin over anything else 

But I always see it more decisions tend to favour those at the top than bottom 

[Teddy Nickelarse]

16 minutes ago, mkowl said:

I do sort of understand the decision on Saturday, the ref gets one view, probably both him and the lino looking more if it's a penalty. Did they see the full picture of where the other players are. 

The penalty at Cardiff, it was soft but thought it was daft by Valentin over anything else 

But I always see it more decisions tend to favour those at the top than bottom 

Yeah, I'm  not having a pop against the refs because they have a hard job. Agree with your last sentence for sure. At the moment the toast invariably seems to be falling marmalade side down for us. 

[MAL]

31 minutes ago, mkowl said:

I do sort of understand the decision on Saturday, the ref gets one view, probably both him and the lino looking more if it's a penalty. Did they see the full picture of where the other players are. 

The penalty at Cardiff, it was soft but thought it was daft by Valentin over anything else 

But I always see it more decisions tend to favour those at the top than bottom 

But we have had numerous decisions given against us, where the referee has gone/couldn't wait to go to the linesman for advice.

When it is our time, he steadfastly just listened to the opposition players, apart from them screaming for a penalty which he didn't give and that was a good decision.

All these discussions say to me is that the game is a parody of itself and is totally ruined.

To be honest (not a new statement, i have said it numerous times) i watch our games and nothing else, i absolutely hate the game now.

I would hate Wednesday to go under, but it would give me so much relief if it happened, as i would not be involved in anything to do with football.

[MAL]

25 minutes ago, holmesfield_owl said:

When I think of bad refs I just think of that villa, pure, one-sided cheating, probably with money involved it was that ridiculous 

I nearly put that in my post rant above 😃

[Boracic Lint]

3 hours ago, mkowl said:

I do sort of understand the decision on Saturday, the ref gets one view, probably both him and the lino looking more if it's a penalty. Did they see the full picture of where the other players are. 

The penalty at Cardiff, it was soft but thought it was daft by Valentin over anything else 

But I always see it more decisions tend to favour those at the top than bottom 

There was an apology issued for the Valentin Swansea penalty, it was outside the box.

The Vaulks (Cardiff) and Gregory (Watford) penalties could be argue against too.

 

The biggest issue is all 4 of them changed the games completely.

[Andyben]

Forestieri red card waaaay back had Parry written all over it

 

But over the course of the season the bad decisions do even themselves out, we have as many at home as we do away.

[Boracic Lint]

Even if they do even out,  the damage is done.

Our biggest issue was we got panicky because we couldn't get that first win and it snowballed.

Look at it this way, Vaulks v Cardiff not given, 3 points. Boro foul on corner given, 3 points.

Then we're actually playing with a bit of confidence once we have points on the board, not the panicky don't lose mentality.

Xisco keeps his job going into Huddersfield, we win that, as any combination of players bar the one that actually played walks that game, then go into the easier fixtures with confidence starting them in lower mid table.

Mid table finish nailed on, most of the protesters stop caring, blah de blah, boring but safe season.

But no.

[mkowl]

8 hours ago, holmesfield_owl said:

When I think of bad refs I just think of that villa, pure, one-sided cheating, probably with money involved it was that ridiculous 

I mean I don't buy the conspiracy theories but that was definitely one game where it was played out in front of you. 

Wasn't it like 20 : 1 on the fouls given

[mkowl]

33 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

Even if they do even out,  the damage is done.

Our biggest issue was we got panicky because we couldn't get that first win and it snowballed.

Look at it this way, Vaulks v Cardiff not given, 3 points. Boro foul on corner given, 3 points.

Then we're actually playing with a bit of confidence once we have points on the board, not the panicky don't lose mentality.

Xisco keeps his job going into Huddersfield, we win that, as any combination of players bar the one that actually played walks that game, then go into the easier fixtures with confidence starting them in lower mid table.

Mid table finish nailed on, most of the protesters stop caring, blah de blah, boring but safe season.

But no.

You can't conclude that one decision not arising would have lead to a different result in the end. If Boro had not scored then, it may have been 10 minutes later because they would have exerted greater pressure until they did equalise.

The confidence was shattered because of the poor preparation of the players, the shit awful tactics and stupid selections all the responsibility of Xisco

[Boracic Lint]

1 minute ago, mkowl said:

You can't conclude that one decision not arising would have lead to a different result in the end. If Boro had not scored then, it may have been 10 minutes later because they would have exerted greater pressure until they did equalise.

The confidence was shattered because of the poor preparation of the players, the shit awful tactics and stupid selections all the responsibility of Xisco

But how much of that was Xisco buckling under the pressure?

He obviously couldn't handle it and abandoned his own stuff to try and mitigate it.

[mkowl]

2 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

But how much of that was Xisco buckling under the pressure?

He obviously couldn't handle it and abandoned his own stuff to try and mitigate it.

He was a terrible head coach - I admire your continuing defence of him but you ain't going to convince anyone on here that their eyes were deceiving them

[Boracic Lint]

8 minutes ago, mkowl said:

He was a terrible head coach - I admire your continuing defence of him but you ain't going to convince anyone on here that their eyes were deceiving them

Not defending him at all, he had to go.

But fuck me, we just couldn't catch a break this season and it's still happening under Rohl.

Every game when we got on top for a bit something happened to fuck it up.

[mkowl]

6 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

Not defending him at all, he had to go.

But fuck me, we just couldn't catch a break this season and it's still happening under Rohl.

Every game when we got on top for a bit something happened to fuck it up.

Like passing the ball out to Bannan who wasn't looking - because that was the catalyst. Poor decision making by the players. We give loads of free kicks away around the area, is that because of the refs or more the opposition have got through our non existent midfield and then the defenders go into the challenge all wrong ? 

[Boracic Lint]

1 minute ago, mkowl said:

Like passing the ball out to Bannan who wasn't looking - because that was the catalyst. Poor decision making by the players. We give loads of free kicks away around the area, is that because of the refs or more the opposition have got through our non existent midfield and then the defenders go into the challenge all wrong ? 

We've nor had anything near a settled team till the last couple of games, players injured, not signed yet, still not up to fitness. We were aleays going to have problems, it takes time. Most of our goals conceded are still from set pieces, something that needs time to sort out with as many new players as we have.

Half of the 'improvement' of late is more down to easier opposition and player availability and familiarity than anything Rohl has done.

On another note, Bannan's in trouble in this league.

He's been caught like that 3-4 times off the top of my head, so it looks like something that's been identified. Luton did it in preseason.

He's not going to get away with how he plays much longer. The biggest improvement in playing out is Byers as he one touches it to someone else, where Bannan has to pirouette and have a look see before he releases it.

[Teddy Nickelarse]

3 hours ago, Boracic Lint said:

We've nor had anything near a settled team till the last couple of games, players injured, not signed yet, still not up to fitness. We were aleays going to have problems, it takes time. Most of our goals conceded are still from set pieces, something that needs time to sort out with as many new players as we have.

Half of the 'improvement' of late is more down to easier opposition and player availability and familiarity than anything Rohl has done.

On another note, Bannan's in trouble in this league.

He's been caught like that 3-4 times off the top of my head, so it looks like something that's been identified. Luton did it in preseason.

He's not going to get away with how he plays much longer. The biggest improvement in playing out is Byers as he one touches it to someone else, where Bannan has to pirouette and have a look see before he releases it.

Regarding the settled team, Röhl has quickly assessed resources and is not playing the selection bingo that Munoz  did. 

The easier opposition comprised of 3 of the 4 games being away.

Munoz did not get the squad adequately fit despite a full pre-season. Röhl has already made significant advances here in the midst of playing games. Basic stuff that Munoz didn't  address. I expect the fitness levels to be boosted further in the international break indeed Röhl has already stated that this will be a key element during the first week.

Munoz was dealt a tough hand but made a right horlicks of it.

Bannan has been guilty of not being alert at times when the ball is played out from the keeper agreed but he's still been our best midfielder consistently this season. There's  still a bit of life in him even in this division. Byers is just starting to show a bit of form now after a slow start on his return. 

 

 

[HoylandOwl]

If we’d have bagged one (or two) of the chances at Bristol City, the sending off of Bannan wouldn’t have been so vociferously contested… 

[Boracic Lint]

38 minutes ago, Teddy Nickelarse said:

Regarding the settled team, Röhl has quickly assessed resources and is not playing the selection bingo that Munoz  did. 

The easier opposition comprised of 3 of the 4 games being away.

Munoz did not get the squad adequately fit despite a full pre-season. Röhl has already made significant advances here in the midst of playing games. Basic stuff that Munoz didn't  address. I expect the fitness levels to be boosted further in the international break indeed Röhl has already stated that this will be a key element during the first week.

Munoz was dealt a tough hand but made a right horlicks of it.

Bannan has been guilty of not being alert at times when the ball is played out from the keeper agreed but he's still been our best midfielder consistently this season. There's  still a bit of life in him even in this division. Byers is just starting to show a bit of form now after a slow start on his return. 

 

 

Full preseason? Most of the team showed up the week before the first game.

Byers, Musaba, Gassama, Iorfa, Valentin and others all injured or unfit for a lot of the games.

Buckley, Hendricks didn't turn up till near the end.

Xisco never once had a full team to pick from. 

It takes a lot longer than 3 weeks to get players to full fitness from low levels, months sometimes. Some of them were only capable of 90 minutes at the end of Xisco's time. If you think he wasn't doing fitness work then I have a bridge to sell you.

The average position of Xiscos opposition was 6.8. Rohl 16.8. There's a world of difference there. 

Rohl's playing a 3421 going into 541 in defence, wonder where we've seen this before. He's literally doing 80-90% the same as Xisco did. This massive revolution that people are seeing doesn't exist.

[Andyben]

calm down Xisco Biscuit

[owl71]

There is a grain of truth in the above, but he’s doing it with fluent English skills and highly experienced and very respected assistants.  Xisco appointed his brother.

[Teddy Nickelarse]

21 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

Full preseason? Most of the team showed up the week before the first game.

Byers, Musaba, Gassama, Iorfa, Valentin and others all injured or unfit for a lot of the games.

Buckley, Hendricks didn't turn up till near the end.

Xisco never once had a full team to pick from. 

It takes a lot longer than 3 weeks to get players to full fitness from low levels, months sometimes. Some of them were only capable of 90 minutes at the end of Xisco's time. If you think he wasn't doing fitness work then I have a bridge to sell you.

The average position of Xiscos opposition was 6.8. Rohl 16.8. There's a world of difference there. 

Rohl's playing a 3421 going into 541 in defence, wonder where we've seen this before. He's literally doing 80-90% the same as Xisco did. This massive revolution that people are seeing doesn't exist.

Opinions differ. You're not seeing the extent of Röhl's impact; others are. Time will tell re Röhl.

Xisco was a disaster and his lack of attention to required fitness levels was a big part of it. 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Teddy Nickelarse

[Boracic Lint]

2 minutes ago, owl71 said:

There is a grain of truth in the above, but he’s doing it with fluent English skills and highly experienced and very respected assistants.  Xisco appointed his brother.

That's the biggest difference. Communication.

Their play styles are intended to be more or less the same. Bit hard to implement though when you're getting pinned in your own half every week and you're players can't keep up.

He can explain to the fans what he's doing and being given the chance to.

Xisco couldn't,  he tried, badly, but people were more interested in where Neymarv was than what he was doing.

To be honest, this fanbase cares more if you're likeable and appreciate them than if you're good at your job.

If Chansiri just came out and said "he lives us all and appreciates all the fans, they're like an extra player, but he's having cash flow issues, so he's put up PotG prices so that away fans and a few casuals cover the shortfall rather than punishing his loyalist fans by removing the earlybird discounts", people would lap it up.

 

[Teddy Nickelarse]

14 minutes ago, owl71 said:

There is a grain of truth in the above, but he’s doing it with fluent English skills and highly experienced and very respected assistants.  Xisco appointed his brother.

Yep a big part of the job is recruitment including back up team. 

[Boracic Lint]

4 minutes ago, Teddy Nickelarse said:

Opinions differ. You're not seeing the extent of Röhl's impact; others are. Time will tell re Röhl.

Xisco was a disaster and his lack of attention to required fitness levels was a big part of it. 

 

If Xisco hadn't been doing fitness work, the team would be weeks away from  playing Rohls style.

You don't suddenly get fit in a couple of weeks, especially not during the season or you wouldn't be able to play through fatigue or injury. It takes months of slow grind to get the fitness up to be a pressing team from where we were when he rocked up.

 

You can't just run through Greno woods a couple of times and all of a sudden you're fit.

[Teddy Nickelarse]

7 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

If Xisco hadn't been doing fitness work, the team would be weeks away from  playing Rohls style.

You don't suddenly get fit in a couple of weeks, especially not during the season or you wouldn't be able to play through fatigue or injury. It takes months of slow grind to get the fitness up to be a pressing team from where we were when he rocked up.

 

You can't just run through Greno woods a couple of times and all of a sudden you're fit.

Of course he did fitness work It's the intensity that was clearly lacking. There's  been incremental improvement in fitness every game under Röhl. He himself has mentioned it various times. Xisco never deemed it worthy of comment. It showed and is showing in a different way now. 

The players themselves are saying that training intensity is higher and harder. They should know.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Teddy Nickelarse

[Boracic Lint]

16 minutes ago, Teddy Nickelarse said:

Of course he did fitness work It's the intensity that was clearly lacking. There's  been incremental improvement in fitness every game under Röhl. He himself has mentioned it various times. Xisco never deemed it worthy of comment. It showed and is showing in a different way now. 

The players themselves are saying that training intensity is higher and harder. They should know.

Fitness work and normal training sessions are separate things.

Xisco commented on it a lot at the start, but was still mentioning lack of fitness after. Got drowned out by more important things like Neymarv.

Smash fitness work when you're playing twice a week and see how well you do.

The players also said that training under Xisco was much more intense than DM, so what the fuck was DM doing?

Are the players now much more fit than when they played WBA?

Nope.

There's a much bigger progression in fitness from Spain to Southampton to WBA than from WBA to now.

Just because they don't tell you about it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

[Teddy Nickelarse]

27 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

Fitness work and normal training sessions are separate things.

Xisco commented on it a lot at the start, but was still mentioning lack of fitness after. Got drowned out by more important things like Neymarv.

Smash fitness work when you're playing twice a week and see how well you do.

The players also said that training under Xisco was much more intense than DM, so what the fuck was DM doing?

Are the players now much more fit than when they played WBA?

Nope.

There's a much bigger progression in fitness from Spain to Southampton to WBA than from WBA to now.

Just because they don't tell you about it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

But if they do it's a flag. Röhl has made a big play on lack of fitness. It's been manifest  Players recently have commented on this specific (fitness) aspect too. They say its harder and more lntensive. It's showing now on the pitch. There has been incremental fitness improvement these past 4 games. There wasn't  under Xisco from Southampton to his leaving. 

Youre not seeing it, others are. Opinions differ. Let's  see how it plays out

Edited November 8, 2023 by Teddy Nickelarse

[Owling_Wolf]

1 hour ago, Boracic Lint said:

That's the biggest difference. Communication.

Their play styles are intended to be more or less the same. Bit hard to implement though when you're getting pinned in your own half every week and you're players can't keep up.

He can explain to the fans what he's doing and being given the chance to.

Xisco couldn't,  he tried, badly, but people were more interested in where Neymarv was than what he was doing.

To be honest, this fanbase cares more if you're likeable and appreciate them than if you're good at your job.

If Chansiri just came out and said "he lives us all and appreciates all the fans, they're like an extra player, but he's having cash flow issues, so he's put up PotG prices so that away fans and a few casuals cover the shortfall rather than punishing his loyalist fans by removing the earlybird discounts", people would lap it up.

 

Xisco was a lovely bloke as we saw in his early days. 

[Boracic Lint]

4 minutes ago, Teddy Nickelarse said:

Röhl has made a big play on lack of fitness. It's been manifest  Players recently have commented on this specific (fitness) aspect too. They say its harder and more lntensive. It's showing now on the pitch. There has been incremental fitness improvement these past 4 games. There wasn't  under Xisco from Southampton to his leaving. 

Youre not seeing it, others are. Opinions differ. Let's  see how it plays out

Endurance fitness is a marathon not a sprint.

The difference in fitness required from playing DM ball when you're on top to the backs to the wall defending we've been doing is like night and day.

Half if the team were unfit when they got here, Xisco was working on it. He literally said he wanted to press, like Rohl, but the players couldn't keep it up.

Many players were only getting up to fitness near the end, Valentin, Musaba, Byers etc couldn't last 90 minutes. It doesn't happen quickly.

You can't get that much fitter in a short amount of time while playing games, or they'd all be fucked after 20 minutes.

Yes, the sessions are longer, but that's tactical play, not fitness. Maybe Xisco did shorter sessions so they had more time in the gym?

We'll never know.

[Teddy Nickelarse]

8 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

Endurance fitness is a marathon not a sprint.

The difference in fitness required from playing DM ball when you're on top to the backs to the wall defending we've been doing is like night and day.

Half if the team were unfit when they got here, Xisco was working on it. He literally said he wanted to press, like Rohl, but the players couldn't keep it up.

Many players were only getting up to fitness near the end, Valentin, Musaba, Byers etc couldn't last 90 minutes. It doesn't happen quickly.

You can't get that much fitter in a short amount of time while playing games, or they'd all be fucked after 20 minutes.

Yes, the sessions are longer, but that's tactical play, not fitness. Maybe Xisco did shorter sessions so they had more time in the gym?

We'll never know.

Agree to differ then. For me I'm delighted that Röhl is in and Xisco is gone.

[Owling_Wolf]

15 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

Endurance fitness is a marathon not a sprint.

The difference in fitness required from playing DM ball when you're on top to the backs to the wall defending we've been doing is like night and day.

Half if the team were unfit when they got here, Xisco was working on it. He literally said he wanted to press, like Rohl, but the players couldn't keep it up.

Many players were only getting up to fitness near the end, Valentin, Musaba, Byers etc couldn't last 90 minutes. It doesn't happen quickly.

You can't get that much fitter in a short amount of time while playing games, or they'd all be fucked after 20 minutes.

Yes, the sessions are longer, but that's tactical play, not fitness. Maybe Xisco did shorter sessions so they had more time in the gym?

We'll never know.

Certainly he said that only one of the original new signings had had a pre-season before joining us: Bambo.  (I'm not counting the later pair.)  There were also factors amongst our existing players. Last season Palmer was amazingly fit and it showed, after his month of 10km charity runs for the poor little cancer tot. (RIP)  In contrast, this time he was recovering from a (groin?) operation and hasn't got going: a major difference.  Even Vaulks had a bit of time off (iirc) with a new babby. It all adds up. 

[Boracic Lint]

6 minutes ago, Owling_Wolf said:

Certainly he said that only one of the original new signings had had a pre-season before joining us: Bambo.  (I'm not counting the later pair.)  There were also factors amongst our existing players. Last season Palmer was amazingly fit and it showed, after his month of 10km charity runs for the poor little cancer tot. (RIP)  In contrast, this time he was recovering from a (groin?) operation and hasn't got going: a major difference.  Even Vaulks had a bit of time off (iirc) with a new babby. It all adds up. 

With all the problems and the fixture list, the break after Huddersfield was always going to be when our season started, any manager would have been lucky to get anything before then.

I'll admit that we seem to have fell on our feet with Rohl, but had he (or DM) started the season, the odds are that he'd have been sacked by now and we'd be looking at them as a disaster.

[Owling_Wolf]

5 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

With all the problems and the fixture list, the break after Huddersfield was always going to be when our season started, any manager would have been lucky to get anything before then.

I'll admit that we seem to have fell on our feet with Rohl, but had he (or DM) started the season, the odds are that he'd have been sacked by now and we'd be looking at them as a disaster.

Not sure I'd go that far. I like what little I've seen so far, too.  The reasons Xisco blew it with me were twofold:

Pre-season was a never ending nightmare in every way.

We were actually getting worse before his sacking, not better.  

Anyway, you and I have already had this conversation. 

[Boracic Lint]

4 minutes ago, Owling_Wolf said:

Not sure I'd go that far. I like what little I've seen so far, too.  The reasons Xisco blew it with me were twofold:

Pre-season was a never ending nightmare in every way.

We were actually getting worse before his sacking, not better.  

Anyway, you and I have already had this conversation. 

Yep. He pissed me off too.

Preseason was a mess, but he couldn't put 11 senior players out, what did people expect? The sad thing was the u21 players got what he wanted, it was the 'senior' players letting him down.

We were getting worse, he'd bottled it by then and was doing what the fans wanted, going back to 532 etc.

At WBA, when he stopped giving a fuck and put out a team that was more 'his', even without Bannan and Windass was much better than the few games previous, and a bit like Saturday, played 20 minutes with 10 men and nearly got a result against a team better than anything we've played since. So some of the improvement was already there.

If he had took the early pain, trusted the process and seen the transition through, like Swansea and Boro did, I'd say we'd be out of the bottom 3 by now.

Rohl has managed to start with a clean slate, and has the ability and backing to see it through. As Chansiri said, this is very much a continuation of what he was trying to achieve but failed.

[Beaconowl]

Good debate is this, Im enjoying reading the different opinions 👍

[Otto_Man]

The hard on you get for Xisco is reyt weird @Boracic Lint. Whatever it was you saw, I certainly didn't, there was no discernible style of play just an obvious over focus on shape and position that, along with the disastrous zonal marking system he sought to introduce, just left us being carved open at will by even the shittiest of teams (like Boro). I'm not suggesting DR is perfect, but the football is 10 times better to watch.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Otto_Man

[Boracic Lint]

17 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

The hard on you get for Xisco is reyt weird @Boracic Lint. Whatever it was you saw, I certainly didn't, there was no discernible style of play just an obvious over focus on shape and position that, along with the disastrous zonal marking system he sought to introduce, just left us being carved open at will by even the shittiest of teams (like Boro). I'm not suggesting DR is perfect, but the football is 10 times better to watch.

My point is and has always been that he never got the chance to fully implement anything.

Almost everything he did was reactive.

The team for the last 2 years has had no shape or style of play. The players just got through by being better individually than everyone we faced. We needed the discipline. Look how many points we lost at the start of the season through stupid or lazy play. Palmer v Soton, Gregory freekick v Preston. 

The zonal system, you have a new defence and midfield, no prep time and you're playing superior opposition. The remnants from the season before are unfit and undisciplined, getting caught on the break and out of position regularly.

You want to press, but your team isn't fit enough.

Your players don't make decisions or react  fast enough for the step up in level.

What do you do?

You put in a system that anyone can slot in and pick up quickly., where everyone has to be in a certain position, no freestyling. You defend the area and let the rest go, so they don't all pile in after 60 minutes. You remove steps and simplify the process till they get used to it.

You put in a system that focuses on shape and discipline.

May not be the best, but it's a quick dirty solution to a problem, that, considering the amount of pressure they were under every game wasn't as bad as people make out.

The one thing he fucked up on was dropping Smith or playing him with Gregory, as then we had no outball to relieve pressure or anyone to challenge for a clearance. Smith and somebody quick would have made a world of difference, as seen in the last 2 games. But Musaba and Gassama weren't fit then so his options were limited.

After the first 2 games, they only conceded 2 open play goals in the next 5.5 games. Defending set pieces need time and familiarity which we didn'thave. It took DM most of a season to stop leaking goals from corners and freekicks.

The zonal and positional system may not have been the best, but it would have been much, much worse without it. This team has been too slow and not been able to cope with the press for 2 years now, they weren't suddenly going to be able to counter it if Xisco let them 'express themselves' or whatever.

He said himself, the players weren't ready for the advanced stuff, learner drivers he called them. He had to simplify, reduce the variables, to get the basics that he could build from. What they did in training may have been completely different to what we saw in game, we don't know.

The basics that Rohl is now building from.

[Reesh]

5 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

My point is and has always been that he never got the chance to fully implement anything.

Almost everything he did was reactive.

The team for the last 2 years has had no shape or style of play. The players just got through by being better individually than everyone we faced. We needed the discipline. Look how many points we lost at the start of the season through stupid or lazy play. Palmer v Soton, Gregory freekick v Preston. 

The zonal system, you have a new defence and midfield, no prep time and you're playing superior opposition. The remnants from the season before are unfit and undisciplined, getting caught on the break and out of position regularly.

You want to press, but your team isn't fit enough.

Your players don't make decisions or react  fast enough for the step up in level.

What do you do?

You put in a system that anyone can slot in and pick up quickly., where everyone has to be in a certain position, no freestyling. You defend the area and let the rest go, so they don't all pile in after 60 minutes. You remove steps and simplify the process till they get used to it.

You put in a system that focuses on shape and discipline.

May not be the best, but it's a quick dirty solution to a problem, that, considering the amount of pressure they were under every game wasn't as bad as people make out.

The one thing he fucked up on was dropping Smith or playing him with Gregory, as then we had no outball to relieve pressure or anyone to challenge for a clearance. Smith and somebody quick would have made a world of difference, as seen in the last 2 games. But Musaba and Gassama weren't fit then so his options were limited.

After the first 2 games, they only conceded 2 open play goals in the next 5.5 games. Defending set pieces need time and familiarity which we didn'thave. It took DM most of a season to stop leaking goals from corners and freekicks.

The zonal and positional system may not have been the best, but it would have been much, much worse without it. This team has been too slow and not been able to cope with the press for 2 years now, they weren't suddenly going to be able to counter it if Xisco let them 'express themselves' or whatever.

He said himself, the players weren't ready for the advanced stuff, learner drivers he called them. He had to simplify, reduce the variables, to get the basics that he could build from. What they did in training may have been completely different to what we saw in game, we don't know.

The basics that Rohl is now building from.

TL:DR

[Boracic Lint]

Just now, Reesh said:

TL:DR

We were in too much of a mess fitness wise and tactically for Xisco to put anything advanced in, hence the u9s zonal system.

[Teddy Nickelarse]

Whatever Xisco was trying to do it was disastrous; recruitment, training, system. We started slowly and went downhill. 

[Reesh]

10 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

We were in too much of a mess fitness wise and tactically for Xisco to put anything advanced in, hence the u9s zonal system.

No one, bar you, gives a flying shit about Xisco right now.

[Boracic Lint]

1 minute ago, Reesh said:

No one, bar you, gives a flying shit about Xisco right now.

Why you posting about him then?

[JBO]

11 hours ago, Boracic Lint said:

 

Look at it this way, Vaulks v Cardiff not given, 3 points. Boro foul on corner given, 3 points.

 

Some stretch to think we would have won at Cardiff if that penalty hadn't been awarded. It was 1-1 in the 98th minute when it happened 

[Reesh]

3 minutes ago, Boracic Lint said:

Why you posting about him then?

Not in the mood to deal with spastics like you today. Keep on posting dull inane shite and I'll ban you.

[Boracic Lint]

3 minutes ago, Reesh said:

Not in the mood to deal with spastics like you today. Keep on posting dull inane shite and I'll ban you.

Well, so much for my foray to a place that's supposed to be the 'grown up place' where you can have an actual debate without getting shut down.

 

Much love.

Bye.