Chelters

Comes to something when reading about this game is better than reading about today’s

Wednesday 16 March 1994

FA Carling Premiership

Manchester United (away)

Having hit a bit of a sticky patch, a second trip to Old Trafford in relatively quick succession was pretty much the last thing that Wednesday needed. The hosts were of course reigning champions and were still on track for a domestic treble, having recently beaten the Owls to Wembley in the League Cup semi-finals.

One thing that always stuck out about this Man U team was their incredible ability to suffer virtually no injuries (often the hallmark of a successful team) and, true to form, they had a full squad to choose from for this game. This was in stark contrast to Wednesday who were missing several key players. With Phil King continuing in midfield, the Owls drafted in Adem Poric for a rare start in midfield, and Julian Watts for his first appearance of the season. This meant an unusual 5-4-1 formation as Trevor Francis presumably wanted to try and stifle the in-form opponents.

No disrespect to Poric and Watts, but they were not exactly the players you wanted filling gaps in the teamsheet for a game such as this, and it was to prove a very difficult - and often rainswept - night.

Wednesday actually started the game reasonably well, but things started to go wrong in the seventh minute when Roland Nilsson was crunched by a certain Eric Cantona, Whether this was part of the cause or not we will never know, but within 15 minutes of that incident the Owls found themselves three goals down. Ryan Giggs opened the scoring with a calm finish, Mark Hughes added the second with what Kevin Pressman later described as 'the hardest shot I've ever faced' and Paul Ince got the third from an Andrei Kanchelskis pass.

A few minutes after that third goal, Nilsson finally succumbed and had to be replaced by Gordon Watson, meaning a reversion to a more familiar formation. But the damage was obviously done and the home side were able to cruise through the rest of the game. It was four by half time with Cantona scoring after leaving the visiting defence in his wake in typical fashion.

As you would expect, the second half was a bit of a non-event. Wednesday had one decent effort when Watson's drive was turned over by Peter Schmeichel. There was time for one more goal for Cantona, an effort off the post from an Ince assist.

No doubt Wednesday were sick of the sight of United, having now been beaten four times by them in the season, and left Old Trafford feeling totally deflated and now carrying another injury to Nilsson. The injuries were at least a bit of an excuse but the gulf in class was even more obvious than it had been a couple of weeks earlier.

Final score : Man Utd 5-0 Wednesday

Man Utd : Schmeichel, Parker, Irwin, Bruce, Pallister, Kanchelskis (Robson 71), Giggs (McClair 45), Ince, Keane, Cantona, Hughes. Unused sub : Sealey

Wednesday : Pressman, Nilsson (Watson 24), Coleman, Watts, Pearce, Walker, Bart-Williams, Sinton, Poric, King, Bright. Unused subs : Jemson, Woods

Attendance : 43,669

7 minutes ago, mkowl said:

I am going to be fair and with no scientific data analysis at all going to invoke the 1/3rd rule 

That 1/3rd are very anti Chansiri

That 1/3rd are pretty dissatisfied that after 9 years at the Club what as the ownership of Chansiri achieved, but appreciate his funding is pivotal

1/3rd would vote for a turd if it was in blue and white stripes, or simply just go for the football and the off field stuff simply does not bother them

I’d agree with that. I would say a fair few of us on here are in the middle third but on X etc painted as being in the final third.

Everything outside looks dark when you’re inside with all the lights on. 

7 hours ago, Jake said:

That’s an impossible task I’m afraid. I can only really go X polls (generally 80-90% Chansiri out depending on latest on field results) but it isn’t much of a demographic.

The visuals of the leaflet protests.

The uptake I’ve witnessed first hand (generally really positive with some abhorrent abuse by a very small minority vs Leeds - zero against Birmingham)

Discussions with fellow fans in the ground/pubs generally in favour, always respectful and understanding.

The comments on Owlstalk (mostly in favour)

Owlsonline (hardly anyone in favour)

TWS - Banned for posting a link to the group (apparently strongly not in favour but also associated officially with the club).

Podcasts and football heaven (mixed but again generally reasoned).

Theres certainly enough people out there whose voice should be heard, in my honest opinion. 

 

 

 

Have you considered the likely confirmation bias in what you believe you are experiencing? Works both ways of course but it feels like there’s a bit creeping in there.

As an example zoom in on a picture of the Kop on Friday night and just look, really look, at how many are holding up the leaflets. It’s no more than about 25%, if that.

We all know this is because it’s Hillsborough. Wouldn’t have warranted a moment’s discussion at any other ground.

Unfortunately we’re just going to have to live with this shit.

4 minutes ago, Andyben said:

In the two years Les was a director/chairman, losses increased 25% p.a. External debt increased to £51m and as has been said ad infinitum, we were about to be liquidated by HMRC.

He was an absolute disaster.

Spoke of foreign investment (US/India) brough brought nothing to the table.

 

But at least he posted on OT daily, dude.

He did have a business plan though. Just a shame it bore about as much resemblance to reality as a unicorn sandwich. 

10 minutes ago, Jake said:

Im involved in construction, mechanical services in the main, I run a business and meet business owners and customers daily. I’m very much involved with business development in a customer facing role. I too have met many people like DC, in my experience the successful, respected ones delegate, maintain healthy relationships with their customers and communicate well (in the main).

In terms of new ownership, I’d like to see us not stagnate, which I feel we have done. I have no preference where the owner is from. Id like to see a vision, harmony with the supporters and I’d like day to day operations being managed by experienced footballing people. A board I feel would be a good idea, where decisions are made by a number of people as opposed to one man. 
 

I don’t have all the answers, never claimed to. I just personally feel DC has nothing to show for the last 9 years and has spent a hell of a lot of money to potentially end up back in league one. I’m willing to listen to anyone who feels he can turn this around. How?
 

 

Appoint a couple of good people to help run the club and leave them to do it.

Back the current coaching team.

That will probably take care of most of it for now. I appreciate you will say what are the chances of him doing the first one as he has never managed it so far. Maybe the group should concentrate on that rather than trying to hound him out would be my response. 

And another thing…(sorry)

Sometimes it’s OK to just say “you know what that”s a good point” or ‘let’s just agree to disagree’. That increases credibility rather than decreasing it.

You and Jake have to a certain extent on here so fair play but the discourse elsewhere certainly doesn’t. 

23 minutes ago, bazapeps said:

Apologies there’s been loads of responses so difficult to address all.

re the debit card issue I think that’s been shown: can’t outside of PayPal and not addressed by the club.

re ticket prices I spent ages last summer comparing to others; particularly re cheapest v cheapest (I haven’t got the document now but which I suspect some will say suits an agenda etc) but it was covered to death last season. 
 

we’ll see the comparisons again this summer when all teams release prices. But given our increases again I’d expect us to be amongst the top championship prices.

my own opinion was the worst thing re prices last year was the prices post initial phase and especially prices over the summer which were just appalling 

I think we’ve introduced enough doubt on here to suggest that the debit/credit card issue is not clear cut and difficult for the club to communicate potentially.

FWIW i do think there is a valid criticism in the ticket prices. 

But my point remains, if you’re going to stick your head above the parapet you have to be ready to be shot at. And that means being thorough, prepared and basically bulletproof.

The ‘pro-Chansiri’ side (which is actually better described as ‘anti-protests’) are not the ones making claims and handing out flyers, they don’t have to justify their position the same way you do. That’s just the way these things are.

Baza you’re kind of missing the key point here, which is the same as the debate around credit cards.

You are the ones making public statements, those arguing against you on here are not. So whether or not Swansea have higher prices in phase one but not phase two, or whatever, it doesn’t really matter. The point is that the burden of proof is on you guys to back up your arguments, and there seems to be sufficient doubt to suggest that our prices might not be quite as ridiculous as made out.

By all means debate on a forum like this but, if you’re not sure, don’t quote it as fact to those who might be more suggestible to further the aims that are not necessarily shared by everyone else.  That’s the point. 

5 minutes ago, Tewksbury said:

The membership is too high.

With it you need about 10 games to see a benefit, by then you're in earlybird territory.

Yeah you’re probably right, I just jeep renewing it every year without really thinking about it  

All helps reduce those losses though!

6 minutes ago, Reesh said:

Swansea is double discount for members pal

 

£17 on the Kop

Good news as I will going up for that one 

Due to my location I just have to pay game by game when I can go but I buy a membership as well. I don’t find the costs excessive to be honest but they are overall a bit on the high side so I think there is a valid criticism, albeit not as big an issue as it is sometimes made out.

But to then criticise the club making losses whilst saying ticket prices are too high is quite frankly bonkers.

Goes back to what I keep saying about just having a big list of gripes with no focus. 

Saturday 12 March 1994

FA Carling Premiership

Southampton (away)

Having hit a spell of iffy form, the Owls travelled down to the south coast hoping to kickstart the run-in with a trip to struggling Southampton. It wasn't the worst place for Wednesday to go, having remained unbeaten at The Dell since 1970.

Let's be honest, the old Southampton ground wasn't exactly the best ground in the world, but it certainly had a weird charm and atmosphere about it that's missing in a lot of modern football stadiums. This game saw the first time the travelling fans had been housed in a little stand rather than an open terrace that involved looking up at the pitch if you stood near the front.

Wednesday's injuries problems continued to bite, resulting in Phil King starting for the first time since early on in the season, continuing in the midfield role that he had filled when coming on as sub in the previous match against Newcastle. The Saints lined up with the dangerous Matt Le Tissier and the equally fearsome - but for different reasons - Iain Dowie.

It was the hosts who started brightly with Craig Maskell - already a tormentor of the Owls this season having scored two for Swindon at Hillsborough - forcing a great save from Kevin Pressman with a curling effort. Shortly afterwards, Pressman was called into action again making a flying save from a Le Tisser free kick. 

Wednesday got themselves into the game a bit more as the half wore on, with Andy Sinton having the best effort from an angled drive saved by Dave Beasant, but the first half ended goalless.

Gordon Watson came close to scoring before the Owls took the lead with a great goal midway through the second half. A short corner routine saw Watson's deflected effort saved by Beasant. Andy Pearce got the ball out to Chris Bart-Williams, who brilliantly danced around three Southampton defenders in the box before firing into the bottom corner. It was a superbly taken goal that would have been shown again and again if someone like Ryan Giggs had scored it.

The Saints pressed for an equaliser and got Wednesday on the back foot, and in the 77th minute the seemingly inevitable happened as defender Ken Monkou scored with a powerful header. It almost got worse when Nicky Banger forced a save from Pressman in the last minute as the Owls' brittle confidence at the end of games continued to show.

It was another frustrating result having taken the lead against a struggling team, and the feeling that the season was drifting away continued, but in isolation it wasn't a disastrous result in a tough game.

Final score : Southampton 1-1 Wednesday

Southampton : Beasant, Kenna, Benali, Wood (Banger 77), Monkou, Maddison, Charlton, Maskell (Allen 62), Magilton, Le Tissier, Dowie. Unused sub : Andrews

Wednesday : Pressman, Nilsson, Coleman, Pearce, Walker, King, Bart-Williams, Sinton, Palmer, Watson, Bright. Unused subs : Poric, Jemson, Key

Attendance : 16,391

Just now, Jake said:

I’m sure you know that isn’t the only reason. 

No but as mentioned earlier you’re throwing far too many reasons in the pot and it damages credibility.

I mean if you just focussed on the one true fuck up of the ground sale issue you would come across better (by you I mean the group) 

And don’t assume the credit card thing is an issue with the club. It could be the other way round. 

In the summer the credit card providers pay millions over to football clubs which they then have to collect from the punters.

So their problem could actually be worries about Joe Public settling their bills after making the purchase on credit.

How would it have gone down if the club had said this? Would they have been accused of ‘blaming fans’?

See what I mean about being sure?

6 minutes ago, Jake said:

To be fair, I’m my opinion it’s not the wisest idea to come out in public and state your cash flow isn’t allowing you to pay HMRC. Your creditors and suppliers will be undoubtedly spooked. I would suggest this hasn’t helped. 

I agree it may not have helped but we’re all speculating and I suspect there was no answer that would have shut people up. If you’re going to publicly make noise about this sort of thing you need to be 100%.

Ticket prices I agree are an issue but it has to be discussed in the context of the finances of the club. And our attendances do seem to be holding up.

I believe there is an issue at the moment with credit card providers getting spooked by football clubs as they end up footing the bill if things go wrong.

I haven’t really done much research on it but I’ve seen it somewhere.

But I would certainly want to be sure of my ground on something like that if I was using it as one of the reasons to justify a protest.

Fair dos to Jake and baza for coming on here with their flak jackets on and trying to engage.

There’s a comment above about Chansiri not being likely to change. I agree with that, but doesn’t that in itself render the protests pointless?

There is a logic gap between wanting a change in ownership and thinking protests are a good idea that I would argue has never been addressed. 

9 hours ago, Jake said:

See now you’re just making things up. Racial abuse? Please expand. 

To answer this point, which I know was hours ago but I’ve been busy at work, as I pointed out on here at the time one of the early intended protests would have technically been a hate crime and could have dragged the supporters’ name through the mud in the same way the Cov incident did.

I appreciate the group did the right thing and pulled it, and have learned from it, but it was a big error.

Going back to the 1867 lot I think they are now damaging what credibility they had by trying to throw too many arguments in the pot, some of which are just nonsensical.

Focus on a few key points :

Ballsing up the sale of the ground

Ticket prices

Lack of structure in the club

Then they might come across as a bit more objective and considered. But they have disappeared too far down the rabbit hole now and I think most fans have seen through them, even if they agree with some of the sentiment.

The key question they should ask themselves is : what could DC do to put things right and stop them protesting? If the only answer is ‘sell the club’ they have zero credibility for me.

I think it’s more a case that he spent the war chest on trying to get us promoted, which then got caught by FFP - even though other clubs get given more by the PL for getting relegated. I think that’s a legitimate frustration.

But his overall lack of structure around the running of the club has always been the main issue for me, everything else stems from that imo. 

Just now, HoylandOwl said:

Then eventually be able to get a squad which is able to remain in the top flight.

Of course, but I think that’s getting further out of reach for any established Championship club now. 

11 minutes ago, HappyOwl said:

I’ve just realised something we are never going up to the premiership are we? How can we ever get to a stage where we can compete with the teams coming down. What have Ipswich done and how do they expect to survive up there?

Ironically I think the only reason we would want to get to the PL is to give us the money to be more competitive in the Championship

He’s literally giving a free kick every time a Leeds player falls over. Got no chance if we’re prevented from getting the ball back.