A New Group of Attention Seekers

[Canterburyowl]

You forgot:

7) Chansiri sells us to some chancer and club ends up like Bury

8 ) Chansiri says fuck this and splashes loads of tuna cash and we get back to back promotions (after going down this season) to the prem

😉

Edited November 16 by Canterburyowl

[Snap]

This 1867 Group have a question and answers section over at that other place. For whatever reason I can't ask anything but what I would like to know is what happens if they turn out to be grunters? I know they are hiding under the cloak of secrecy now, and they have intimated that they will eventually expose themselves but god, can you imagine if they are pigs? A lot of people would end up with egg on their faces, and anyone who'd signed that grubby little petition they have going would have exposed themselves to eternal ridicule.

Well, I can dream can't I?

[Paul from Wisewood]

30 minutes ago, Snap said:

This 1867 Group have a question and answers section over at that other place. For whatever reason I can't ask anything but what I would like to know is what happens if they turn out to be grunters? I know they are hiding under the cloak of secrecy now, and they have intimated that they will eventually expose themselves but god, can you imagine if they are pigs? A lot of people would end up with egg on their faces, and anyone who'd signed that grubby little petition they have going would have exposed themselves to eternal ridicule.

Well, I can dream can't I?

Can’t imagine many Bertie’s wanting us to get rid of chanser

[Snap]

6 hours ago, mkowl said:

All this simply begs the question of where do we go from here.

1) Chansiri sells out at an acceptable price for him to a new owner with funds

2) Chansiri sells out for £1 but keeps the stadium 

3) Nothing happens but Chansiri keeps adequate funding going

4) Nothing happens but funding is restricted - whether deliberately or not. The end of November will be the next test on that front

5) HMRC force a situation if there is lack of funds and a new owner saves the situation

6) We go into administration or worse

I mean that is the broad brush possibilities 

The crux is no one aside from Chansiri knows a) his price b) his inclination c) his available funds. 

This Club sadly just seems at another crossroads. I have no idea which direction we are going 

I've given quite a bit of thought to this over a few years now, I posted recently along similar lines. You asked me to search back over the last couple of months if you remember and I came across Hoyland Owl's one for the accountants. In that post he provides a link to the accounts for the year ended mid 2022 as below.

https://www.swfc.co.uk/siteassets/pdf-links/july-2023/swfc---accounts-year-ended-31-july-2022.pdf

Mainly just a load of figures thrown together by the modern day financial equivalent of a snake oil salesman (😂😂😂) if you'll pardon the expression. But, I digress. 

My attention was drawn to page 26 which show liabilities of around £65.5 million, I understand there are other companies to take into consideration, Sheffield 2, Sheffield Wednesday Holdings etc.

We've agreed that i'm no accountant, and as Andyben said, I may be talking a load of horse shit, but to my untrained eye, that doesn't look too rosy to me. There can only be 2 answers to this, he's up to his neck in shit or there's a massive gaslighting operation in play, but we all know it's the former don't we.

So going back to your post, a topic I did try to allude to previously.

If we're up the creak for £60m and he values us at £30m then someone will need to spend £90m to buy us. But I hear you say, he just owes that money to himself. So I have to ask, why did he have to take a loan out then, and you'll say he lent himself the money.😂😂😂 Which is all fine I suppose, in Accountancy speak but sooner or later, eventually, even the well practiced Accountant has to return to the old fashioned balance sheet, when the obfuscation has to cease and the piper has to be paid. It may not be the £60m, but whatever the figure is has to be added to the price that he puts on the club, which we all know will be a lot more than what it's worth.

So, item 1 won't happen. Unless it's been a massive accountancy/gas lighting operation.

Item 2 would make sense. Somebody like (god forbid) Geoff Sheard, Mamadov, Cloud 9 sports (was it?) Eric Alonso comes along and thinks they can gradually improve the club as a whole by paying £3m pa to rent the stadium. Chansiri lets them have a pop whilst waiting in the wings to pick up the pieces.

3) Would be my preferred option. If we do go down he'll be taking a big hit in season ticket sales. This could be offset by POTG walk ups etc if DR gets us firing in league 1 which I think he will do.

4) I honestly think we're OK now. I'd like to think everything was planned for the next 12 months finance wise and he was comfortable with the plan up until having to sack Xisco and bring in new people, un-costed unplanned event.

5) Always possible I suppose but I'm really hoping he has a firm hand on the tiller now.

6) Well from what I've heard and read, admittedly from people who are about as wise and as in the know as I am, the bloke has no intention of selling, he won't even hear talk about it. Just doesn't sound like someone who is desperate and under pressure.

I wonder if he has any inheritance coming his way. Not a nice subject I know but I'm sure he considers it from time to time.

So, I'm hoping for item 3. Back to grass roots, possibly via League 1 and let DR build us a team we can relly be proud of.

Drums fingers and awaits horse shit quip.😂😂😂 But I don't care, that passed a hour.

[Snap]

44 minutes ago, Paul from Wisewood said:

Can’t imagine many Bertie’s wanting us to get rid of chanser

I can't imagine Mr Chansiri kowtowing to anyone on social media about how to operate the business that he owns. In fact I could see him doing the exact opposite.

[mkowl]

Snap 

Lets go to basics

1) Chansiri over the years has pumped in circa 80m into the football club as loans. Actual commitment on top probably includes 40m to acquire the shares from Mandaric (that is not public record).

Over and above this there are significant sums per year he puts into the football club by way of sponsorship and marketing payments.

Thus the largest creditor in the football club accounts ie who is owed money is Chansiri himself.

2) the last accounts to 31st July 22  however also include about 8m in taxes (probably VAT legitimately deferred during covid).

3) There is also a loan of 6m plus accrued interest. It is a moot point what this relates to. Chansiri has stated on the record this is an old sum inherited as a liability relating back to Mandaric's time. It has only been the last couple of years it has been disclosed specifically in the accounts.

4) it would appear this is the loan that is secured against the stadium. It does get confusing because it is shown on the Companies House record of Sheffield 3 Ltd (the company to which the stadium was transferred) even the money itself is a loan to the football club

5) There is nothing unusual in that regard. People who loan money  quite like to have security / charges over assets to protect their funds

6) the partial confusion is that each year the loan gets renewed for another year and a new updated charge is registered. The old ones could in theory be satisfied because there is a new one. This has not arisen. Again not unusual that this does not happen. I can promise in real life I have had client companies with outstanding charges for long settled loans. It doesn't surprise me in this case the lender insists on them remaining.

7) now there is a theoretical possibility it is new loans everytime. And thus the indebtedness is 24m not 6m. There is nothing on the public record that proves or disproves what the actual sum is. I err on it being only 6m and this is a renewed loan each year, but there is a lack of evidence for me to 100% conclude

8 as we know the stadium sale was an attempt to circumvent FFP. You create a profit in the football club by valuing this at 60m. Hence SWFC sold this to Sheffield 3 for this sum but by way of an accounting entry

Dr Intercompany loan 

Cr Sale of stadium

It states this is repaid in 8 annual instalments of 7.5m

At the same time Sheff 3 Limited rents the stadium for (stand to be corrected) 2.5m per annum for 30 years to the football club

9  it is this lease that creates / justifies the value of 60m for the stadium sale. Its never what the plot is worth as houses

10 that lease could be changed, amended, varied at  any time. Chansiri is a party to both sides so can unilaterally cancel the lease if he so chose. It would not budge the stadium sale price

11 when it comes to cash, then if I owe you 7.5m and you owe me 2.5m each year, then actually you owe a net 5m. However the accounting alchemy is that real money does not have to change hands here. I can pretend to pay this and simply post journal entries to create the pretence. 

12) but accounting needs to balance up, so to complete this I pretend that Chansiri is the notional bank manager. By doing this his loan in the football club is effectively reduced, but his loan in Sheffield 3 is increased

13 Basically over time his loan, or part thereof, is moved from one company to the other. The amount isn't changing at this level

14 However his loan overall is still increasing because he is funding the club no different to before

15 Hence none of this stadium stuff matters UNLESS Chansiri only sells the football side and keep the stadium. But the lease could be re-negotiated if that arose

 

[Snap]

7 minutes ago, mkowl said:

Snap 

Lets go to basics

1) Chansiri over the years has pumped in circa 80m into the football club as loans. Actual commitment on top probably includes 40m to acquire the shares from Mandaric (that is not public record).

Over and above this there are significant sums per year he puts into the football club by way of sponsorship and marketing payments.

Thus the largest creditor in the football club accounts ie who is owed money is Chansiri himself.

2) the last accounts to 31st July 22  however also include about 8m in taxes (probably VAT legitimately deferred during covid).

3) There is also a loan of 6m plus accrued interest. It is a moot point what this relates to. Chansiri has stated on the record this is an old sum inherited as a liability relating back to Mandaric's time. It has only been the last couple of years it has been disclosed specifically in the accounts.

4) it would appear this is the loan that is secured against the stadium. It does get confusing because it is shown on the Companies House record of Sheffield 3 Ltd (the company to which the stadium was transferred) even the money itself is a loan to the football club

5) There is nothing unusual in that regard. People who loan money  quite like to have security / charges over assets to protect their funds

6) the partial confusion is that each year the loan gets renewed for another year and a new updated charge is registered. The old ones could in theory be satisfied because there is a new one. This has not arisen. Again not unusual that this does not happen. I can promise in real life I have had client companies with outstanding charges for long settled loans. It doesn't surprise me in this case the lender insists on them remaining.

7) now there is a theoretical possibility it is new loans everytime. And thus the indebtedness is 24m not 6m. There is nothing on the public record that proves or disproves what the actual sum is. I err on it being only 6m and this is a renewed loan each year, but there is a lack of evidence for me to 100% conclude

8 as we know the stadium sale was an attempt to circumvent FFP. You create a profit in the football club by valuing this at 60m. Hence SWFC sold this to Sheffield 3 for this sum but by way of an accounting entry

Dr Intercompany loan 

Cr Sale of stadium

It states this is repaid in 8 annual instalments of 7.5m

At the same time Sheff 3 Limited rents the stadium for (stand to be corrected) 2.5m per annum for 30 years to the football club

9  it is this lease that creates / justifies the value of 60m for the stadium sale. Its never what the plot is worth as houses

10 that lease could be changed, amended, varied at  any time. Chansiri is a party to both sides so can unilaterally cancel the lease if he so chose. It would not budge the stadium sale price

11 when it comes to cash, then if I owe you 7.5m and you owe me 2.5m each year, then actually you owe a net 5m. However the accounting alchemy is that real money does not have to change hands here. I can pretend to pay this and simply post journal entries to create the pretence. 

12) but accounting needs to balance up, so to complete this I pretend that Chansiri is the notional bank manager. By doing this his loan in the football club is effectively reduced, but his loan in Sheffield 3 is increased

13 Basically over time his loan, or part thereof, is moved from one company to the other. The amount isn't changing at this level

14 However his loan overall is still increasing because he is funding the club no different to before

15 Hence none of this stadium stuff matters UNLESS Chansiri only sells the football side and keep the stadium. But the lease could be re-negotiated if that arose

 

I'm going to read that after me tea,

[mkowl]

9 minutes ago, Snap said:

I'm going to read that after me tea,

I would have a few beers as well. It will help you get over the fee note I am sending 

[Winco]

1 hour ago, mkowl said:

Snap 

Lets go to basics

1) Chansiri over the years has pumped in circa 80m into the football club as loans. Actual commitment on top probably includes 40m to acquire the shares from Mandaric (that is not public record).

Over and above this there are significant sums per year he puts into the football club by way of sponsorship and marketing payments.

Thus the largest creditor in the football club accounts ie who is owed money is Chansiri himself.

2) the last accounts to 31st July 22  however also include about 8m in taxes (probably VAT legitimately deferred during covid).

3) There is also a loan of 6m plus accrued interest. It is a moot point what this relates to. Chansiri has stated on the record this is an old sum inherited as a liability relating back to Mandaric's time. It has only been the last couple of years it has been disclosed specifically in the accounts.

4) it would appear this is the loan that is secured against the stadium. It does get confusing because it is shown on the Companies House record of Sheffield 3 Ltd (the company to which the stadium was transferred) even the money itself is a loan to the football club

5) There is nothing unusual in that regard. People who loan money  quite like to have security / charges over assets to protect their funds

6) the partial confusion is that each year the loan gets renewed for another year and a new updated charge is registered. The old ones could in theory be satisfied because there is a new one. This has not arisen. Again not unusual that this does not happen. I can promise in real life I have had client companies with outstanding charges for long settled loans. It doesn't surprise me in this case the lender insists on them remaining.

7) now there is a theoretical possibility it is new loans everytime. And thus the indebtedness is 24m not 6m. There is nothing on the public record that proves or disproves what the actual sum is. I err on it being only 6m and this is a renewed loan each year, but there is a lack of evidence for me to 100% conclude

8 as we know the stadium sale was an attempt to circumvent FFP. You create a profit in the football club by valuing this at 60m. Hence SWFC sold this to Sheffield 3 for this sum but by way of an accounting entry

Dr Intercompany loan 

Cr Sale of stadium

It states this is repaid in 8 annual instalments of 7.5m

At the same time Sheff 3 Limited rents the stadium for (stand to be corrected) 2.5m per annum for 30 years to the football club

9  it is this lease that creates / justifies the value of 60m for the stadium sale. Its never what the plot is worth as houses

10 that lease could be changed, amended, varied at  any time. Chansiri is a party to both sides so can unilaterally cancel the lease if he so chose. It would not budge the stadium sale price

11 when it comes to cash, then if I owe you 7.5m and you owe me 2.5m each year, then actually you owe a net 5m. However the accounting alchemy is that real money does not have to change hands here. I can pretend to pay this and simply post journal entries to create the pretence. 

12) but accounting needs to balance up, so to complete this I pretend that Chansiri is the notional bank manager. By doing this his loan in the football club is effectively reduced, but his loan in Sheffield 3 is increased

13 Basically over time his loan, or part thereof, is moved from one company to the other. The amount isn't changing at this level

14 However his loan overall is still increasing because he is funding the club no different to before

15 Hence none of this stadium stuff matters UNLESS Chansiri only sells the football side and keep the stadium. But the lease could be re-negotiated if that arose

 

Fuck me I bet Mrs Mk is dry as the Sahara.

😂

[Andyben]

5 minutes ago, Winco said:

Fuck me I bet Mrs Mk is dry as the Sahara.

😂

Apart from 2pm-6pm every Saturday....

[Winco]

4 minutes ago, Andyben said:

Apart from 2pm-6pm every Saturday....

Double booked pal 

[mkowl]

28 minutes ago, Winco said:

Fuck me I bet Mrs Mk is dry as the Sahara.

😂

Certainly compared to Mrs Winco

[Winco]

6 minutes ago, mkowl said:

Certainly compared to Mrs Winco

Wetter than a spastics chin ah lass pal.

[Reesh]

1 hour ago, Winco said:

Wetter than a spastics chin ah lass pal.

Only when you're out working.

[Snap]

@mkowlRight, thanks for all that. I think I'm getting there now. I don't usually pay much attention to the finances of the club, recent events prompted me to take a bit more interest. I had been under the impression that we'd actually borrowed the £60M from a finance company, this would have been down to reading it somewhere that was putting out mis-information at the time and me not paying close enough attention.

The £65M liabilities stated on page 26 would be the £6M from the MM loan, or possibly up to 4x that amount and £8M in some sort of tax, some to the butcher the baker and the candlestick maker and the balance to DC himself via Sheffield 3.

I was worried we was into someone for £60M hence the £90M scenario. But it looks like that money has already been lost by DC. Hopefully then we just owe the circa £15M in liabilities to outside the group with DC left to suck up the rest. Poor old DC.

[Andyben]

Its far more than £60m, look at how much the share capital and share premium has increased by as hes converted loans to equity to stay on right side of FFP

[mkowl]

47 minutes ago, Andyben said:

Its far more than £60m, look at how much the share capital and share premium has increased by as hes converted loans to equity to stay on right side of FFP

True 

The full cost so far is the sum of

What he paid to MM for the shares

The loan to equity conversion you mention that I had forgotten about

The o/s loan balance to him in Swfc

The o/s loan balance to him in Sheffield 3 

The moneys put in for sponsorship etc

It is often mooted that could be upto £200m

Current valuation of everything ?

£30m 

Or £1 if he doesn't have any money left 

[HoylandOwl]

13 hours ago, mkowl said:

Snap 

Lets go to basics

1) Chansiri over the years has pumped in circa 80m into the football club as loans. Actual commitment on top probably includes 40m to acquire the shares from Mandaric (that is not public record).

Over and above this there are significant sums per year he puts into the football club by way of sponsorship and marketing payments.

Thus the largest creditor in the football club accounts ie who is owed money is Chansiri himself.

2) the last accounts to 31st July 22  however also include about 8m in taxes (probably VAT legitimately deferred during covid).

3) There is also a loan of 6m plus accrued interest. It is a moot point what this relates to. Chansiri has stated on the record this is an old sum inherited as a liability relating back to Mandaric's time. It has only been the last couple of years it has been disclosed specifically in the accounts.

4) it would appear this is the loan that is secured against the stadium. It does get confusing because it is shown on the Companies House record of Sheffield 3 Ltd (the company to which the stadium was transferred) even the money itself is a loan to the football club

5) There is nothing unusual in that regard. People who loan money  quite like to have security / charges over assets to protect their funds

6) the partial confusion is that each year the loan gets renewed for another year and a new updated charge is registered. The old ones could in theory be satisfied because there is a new one. This has not arisen. Again not unusual that this does not happen. I can promise in real life I have had client companies with outstanding charges for long settled loans. It doesn't surprise me in this case the lender insists on them remaining.

7) now there is a theoretical possibility it is new loans everytime. And thus the indebtedness is 24m not 6m. There is nothing on the public record that proves or disproves what the actual sum is. I err on it being only 6m and this is a renewed loan each year, but there is a lack of evidence for me to 100% conclude

8 as we know the stadium sale was an attempt to circumvent FFP. You create a profit in the football club by valuing this at 60m. Hence SWFC sold this to Sheffield 3 for this sum but by way of an accounting entry

Dr Intercompany loan 

Cr Sale of stadium

It states this is repaid in 8 annual instalments of 7.5m

At the same time Sheff 3 Limited rents the stadium for (stand to be corrected) 2.5m per annum for 30 years to the football club

9  it is this lease that creates / justifies the value of 60m for the stadium sale. Its never what the plot is worth as houses

10 that lease could be changed, amended, varied at  any time. Chansiri is a party to both sides so can unilaterally cancel the lease if he so chose. It would not budge the stadium sale price

11 when it comes to cash, then if I owe you 7.5m and you owe me 2.5m each year, then actually you owe a net 5m. However the accounting alchemy is that real money does not have to change hands here. I can pretend to pay this and simply post journal entries to create the pretence. 

12) but accounting needs to balance up, so to complete this I pretend that Chansiri is the notional bank manager. By doing this his loan in the football club is effectively reduced, but his loan in Sheffield 3 is increased

13 Basically over time his loan, or part thereof, is moved from one company to the other. The amount isn't changing at this level

14 However his loan overall is still increasing because he is funding the club no different to before

15 Hence none of this stadium stuff matters UNLESS Chansiri only sells the football side and keep the stadium. But the lease could be re-negotiated if that arose

 

Thanks MK

[Reesh]

Kieran Maguire has all the information now to create his next module, well done MK

[Chelters]

1 hour ago, Reesh said:

Kieran Maguire has all the information now to create his next module, well done MK

Problem is mk put a debit and credit in the explanation so he’s fucked in terms of understanding it. 

[Reesh]

He struggles with basic GAAP so you're right.

[Andyben]

It's the GAAP between his ears that's the problem 

[Chelters]

Aaah accounting jokes. After all these years this forum has finally peaked. 

[Owling_Wolf]

Mind the GAAP?

[Tylluan]

On 17/11/2023 at 10:23, Andyben said:

It's the GAAP between his ears that's the problem 

 

1 hour ago, Owling_Wolf said:

Mind the GAAP?

Quite a big GAAP between these two posts. 

[Owling_Wolf]

On 17/11/2023 at 12:00, Chelters said:

Aaah accounting jokes. After all these years this forum has finally peaked. 

There's no accounting for taste.   😋

[Skamp]

If you have constipation, be like an accountant and use a pencil and piece of paper to work it out.

[Owling_Wolf]

57 minutes ago, Skamp said:

If you have constipation, be like an accountant and use a pencil and piece of paper to work it out.

And make sure you use the correct end of the pencil.  

[HoylandOwl]

To ensure you're not missing the point?

[Owling_Wolf]

On 19/11/2023 at 19:52, HoylandOwl said:

To ensure you're not missing the point?

Sharp as a...   😉

[HoylandOwl]

Pencil.

[EBRA]

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/save-owls-sheff-weds-fans-fighting-chansiri-2773812
 

One member of the 1867 Group believes while the fans were patient for many years, around 90 per cent no longer support Chansiri and there are genuine worries about the club’s future. “We’re always constantly thinking whether we are going to have a club this time next season,” the campaigner said.
 

 

[Andyben]

90%...😂 

[Billysboy]

Stopped reading at "fear of administration."

[HoylandOwl]

 

 

[Andyben]

Star journalist must have written that, and one who missed this year's legal training on libel.

Accusing DC of not acting in good faith in respect of a purported private transaction (that it appears this consortium have leaked and potentially breaking any NDA) is both disingenuous and  could leave the group open to litigation.

Good luck 😂

[Andyben]

I mean "made substantial profit on what he paid MM" ignores the many tens of millions he's put in on top of the purchase price to buy players and support the push for PL football. 

This will not end well for them.

[Sheffieldblue]

Does anyone know who these 1867 chancers are? Any names or is it all anonymous?

Wouldn't surprise me at all to find  out its a set of pigs shit stirring. 

Until there's names and faces accountable , why do they think they should be taken seriously?

[Andyben]

"...when administration relegates us to L2"

FFS embarrassing 

[Andyben]

5 minutes ago, Andyben said:

I mean "made substantial profit on what he paid MM" ignores the many tens of millions he's put in on top of the purchase price to buy players and support the push for PL football. 

This will not end well for them.

Its @Bellsviewand DA all over again 😂

Edited November 27 by Andyben

[Beaconowl]

Goodness me, that's an embarrassing article

[Andyben]

So DC sells to the consortium.

They run out of cash in 2025.

I buy the club on the cheap.

I'll appoint DC as Lifetime President and Simon Jordan as COO

[EBRA]

Starts off sensible but then…

a) DC flys into country but no intention to sell

b) consortium is perfect and will do exactly what we all want??

c) all about confidnetialtiy though so can’t so too much about them

d) oh by the way - this is Chansiri demands - positioning -  indeed really as no intention to sell - wants to be there forever ..

e) New consortium happy to share all this with 3 people who once started a racially motivated campaign and wanted to show D.C. they are honest and genuine by sharing all this with said group to happily post to all fans to turn them against the owner.

 

 

Edited November 27 by EBRA

[mkowl]

Taking the article at face value - and not commenting on the accuracy or inaccuracy thereof - what value would be seen as reasonable for DC to sell. 

Well the old adage is a business is worth what someone will pay for it, well its also worth what someone is prepared to sell it for.

I would argue that the Club - throwing in the stadium - is only worth at best the same as Chansiri paid for it. Clearly if he thinks it's worth more that is his perogative, but the reality. Well we are lower in the pyramid, the playing squad is probably worse and yet again relegation must be a 75% probability.

The amount he has funded the company is totally irrelevant to the valuation - particularly as this as simply funded losses, there is very little investment within that.

I appreciate the Glazers want to retain a majority interest, but that with the Ineos chap won't end well. Neither would this 

 

[Andyben]

£25m for 49% with option to buy remaining 51% for £35m after 3years or upon promotion to PL which if PL would then crystalise an additional £40m ex-gratia payment.

Assume running costs and commit £10m to playing squad each season.

That's my thinking.

So £60m for the lot or £100m if promoted and save him £Xm per year running costs.

[KrolMong]

1 hour ago, HoylandOwl said:

 

 

I wonder how much they’d be able to prove in that statement above. Or has this ‘consortium’ told them verbally. There’s a few ‘we understand’ in the statement, in other words - they’ve seen nothing, and taken the word of some consortium who hasn’t shown anything to anyone.

[mkowl]

12 minutes ago, Andyben said:

£25m for 49% with option to buy remaining 51% for £35m after 3years or upon promotion to PL which if PL would then crystalise an additional £40m ex-gratia payment.

Assume running costs and commit £10m to playing squad each season.

That's my thinking.

So £60m for the lot or £100m if promoted and save him £Xm per year running costs.

So that's your offer then 

[Andyben]

Would be my offer as we stand today.

Lets see in a couple of years 

[TheExile]

It seems a bit of a rehash of what is already known or suspected ie DC wants a lot of money for the club just like he over valued so many players over the years 

[Chelters]

As with all their statements they start off being quite measured and businesslike and then descend into a rant. They just never learn.

If there is truth in it then of course Chansiri needs to be called out on it. But I am not blindly going to believe a group that won’t reveal their identity and don’t know where to put a fucking apostrophe.